Millennial Considerations

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 23, 2017

Truth7t7 said:
There will be no earthly 1000 year kingdom after Jesus returns, "Eternity Begins"

Eternity began long ago.
Also, the heavenly kingdom.
When Jesus Returns, almost everyone, or maybe everyone, will be surprised (and almost everyone, or maybe everyone, still lost sinners).

If you got tricked into believing amil, what can you do about that ?

BABerean2 · Dec 23, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
If you got tricked into believing amil, what can you do about that ?

We can show you the verses that kill the premill doctrine.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The time of the judgment of the dead is right after the 7th trumpet.
Your Bible says the same thing.

.

seventysevens · Dec 23, 2017

Shows how amil misinterpret /misunderstand scripture - kinda like someone misspelling or mispronouncing your name and you tell them about it and they determine how it should be in order to fit what they prefer that is what amil prefer

BABerean2 said:
We can show you the verses that kill the premill doctrine.

.

Marilyn C · Dec 23, 2017

BABerean2 said:
They are Christians who are Israelites, just like the Apostle Paul, who had the following to say about genealogies.

1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

.

And how did these Heb. 11 (OT) people become part of the Body of Christ before it had ever formed?

BTW not sure of why you brought in `genealogies.`

BABerean2 · Dec 23, 2017

Marilyn C said:
And how did these Heb. 11 (OT) people become part of the Body of Christ before it had ever formed?

Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Abraham and David had faith in the seed of the woman from Genesis 3:15, who is the seed of Abraham, and the seed of David.

Their destination is the heavenly city of New Jerusalem, which Paul described in Galatians 4:26, and is the same destination as ours.

Based on Galatians 3:28-29, we are also the children of Abraham and inherit the same promise, through Christ.

Do you think Abraham's final destination is different from ours?

.

Marilyn C · Dec 24, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Abraham and David had faith in the seed of the woman from Genesis 3:15, who is the seed of Abraham, and the seed of David.

Their destination is the heavenly city of New Jerusalem, which Paul described in Galatians 4:26, and is the same destination as ours.

Based on Galatians 3:28-29, we are also the children of Abraham and inherit the same promise, through Christ.

Do you think Abraham's final destination is different from ours?

.

Thank you for your good reply, and obviously I agree with most of it as per the Heb. 11 people. Then you did well to back up your thoughts concerning the Body of Christ with what you believe is our eternal destination - Jerusalem above.

So let`s look a bit closer at those scriptures -

Gal. 3: 28 - 29. `Abraham`s seed,` we know refers to being `of faith` believing God for what He promised us. We know that God promised the OT saints (Heb. 11 people) a city, as you quoted. And that city is the New Jerusalem.

Then you say that we the Body of Christ have our destination there also, referring to Gal. 4: 26

`But Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.` (Gal. 4: 26)

So if you know the layout of Jerusalem, you would know that it consists of

Upper Area - Mt. Zion. (King David ruled there & his household)
Lower Area - the city lower down for the other people.

This is referred to as Jerusalem - the rulership, Mt. Zion plus the city. Two components there bro. So...let`s go to Heb. 12 and see what God tells us -

`But you have come to Mount Zion AND to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General assembly and the Church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus, the Mediator of the new covenant...` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

Mount Zion - the rulership area promised to .....
The city area - promised to .......

LastSeven · Dec 24, 2017

Truth7t7 said:
My Holy Bible in Revelation 20:11-15KJV states Hell.

The KJV uses the word hell but that's irrelevant because even hell is not what you think it is. Look at Psalm 139:8.

Psalm 139:8
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

So if God is in hell, then surely hell can not mean what you think it means.

The Greek word Hades is not just "mythology", the word has a meaning and the meaning is "the unseen".

Here's a page that lists how the different versions of the Bible use the words Sheol, Hades and Hell. Merciful Truth : The Origin of Hell.

LastSeven · Dec 24, 2017

Truth7t7 said:
I believe in a literal "Hell" a place of torment.

LastSeven believes in "Hades" a Greek Word and teaching From Greek Mythology.

I believe in Hades? What does that even mean? Hades is not even a place. It's a word used to describe "the unseen". The word hell is used in some translations, Hades in others. These are not two different concepts, just two different words.

Unfortunately, modern pop culture has given the word "hell" a meaning that is far removed from what the KJV authors had in mind, so now when people see the word hell in the KJV they think it refers to an eternal place of torment. It doesn't.

BABerean2 · Dec 24, 2017

Marilyn C said:
Mount Zion - the rulership area promised to .....

The city area - promised to .......

So you have divided up the heavenly Jerusalem into two different sections in order to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

And I guess you are still going to promote the idea of a "Gentile Church" even though when the Church began almost all of its members were Israelites. Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36.

You are "wrongly" dividing the Word of God, by dividing up the Saints in New Jerusalem.

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, shows the error of the doctrine that John Nelson Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War.

.

Truth7t7 · Dec 24, 2017

LastSeven said:
I believe in Hades? What does that even mean? Hades is not even a place. It's a word used to describe "the unseen". The word hell is used in some translations, Hades in others. These are not two different concepts, just two different words.

Unfortunately, modern pop culture has given the word "hell" a meaning that is far removed from what the KJV authors had in mind, so now when people see the word hell in the KJV they think it refers to an eternal place of torment. It doesn't.

Hell is the present place of torment the wicked go to upon death, its not eternal. Luke 16:22-31

Death and Hell will be cast into the "Lake Of Fire" which is the eternal place of torment. Revelation 20:11-15, Revelation 14:10-11

We will strongly disagree

Your views of "Soul Sleep" & "Hell" match the teachings of Ellen G. White in 7th day Adventism to a capital "T"

I believe 7th day Adventism is nothing more than a Cult, just as the JW'S and Mormons are.

DavidPT · Dec 24, 2017

BABerean2 said:
We can show you the verses that kill the premill doctrine.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The time of the judgment of the dead is right after the 7th trumpet.
Your Bible says the same thing.

.

You haven't proven anything though. LOL. You'll have to do better than this.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This happens after the 7th trumpet has sounded. It happens after the time of the dead. It is ludicrous there would be an earthquake, and great hail, if everyone on the planet are already dead. Yet you ignore this fact.

Personally I don't care what any of you believe. But when you start saying things as if they are 100% fact, hard to ignore that false claim, such as your claim here, that this alone kills Premil doctrine, without first proving how by showing why Revelation 11:19 would be occurring after the time of the dead, where you apparently take that to mean all of the dead, then explaining how the time of the dead can include anyone verse 19 affects, since they obviously aren't even dead yet and that the time of the dead precedes the events recorded in verse 19?

Truth7t7 · Dec 24, 2017

DavidPT said:
You haven't proven anything though. LOL. You'll have to do better than this.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquaarou and great hail.

This happens after the 7th trumpet has sounded. It happens after the time of the dead. It is ludicrous there would be an earthquake, and great hail, if everyone on the planet are already dead. Yet you ignore this fact.

Personally I don't care what any of you believe. But when you start saying things as if they are 100% fact, hard to ignore that false claim, such as your claim here, that this alone kills Premil doctrine, without first proving how by showing why Revelation 11:19 would be occurring after the time of the dead, where you apparently take that to mean all of the dead, then explaining how the time of the dead can include anyone verse 19 affects, since they obviously aren't even dead yet and that the time of the dead precedes the events recorded in verse 19?

Dave you cant accept the "Very Clear" teaching of Matthew 25:31-46, how are you capable of moving forward in your eschatology, is a big mystery to me?

You teach of "Three Groups" in Matthew 25:31-46

1. Sheep/Righteous

2. Goats/Intermediate State

3. Wicked/Satanist-Witches-Athiest

Gods word does not teach your private interpretation

Jesus returns in the final judgment, there are "Two Groups" righteous sheep and wicked Goats. The righteous obtain eternal life and enter the eternal kingdom, the wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire, "Eternity Begins"!

You have created this interpretation to allow for mortal humans "Goats" to be wandering around in your 1000 year kingdom.

100% False

DavidPT · Dec 24, 2017

Truth7t7 said:
You have created this interpretation to allow for mortal humans "Goats" to be wandering around in your 1000 year kingdom.

100% False

You obviously haven't been paying close enough attention to posts I have made in the past then. I never one time claimed goats would be alive and roaming about the earth during the future thousand years. I did say mortals would be though. But these are not meaning any of the goats per Matt 25 though. Some Premils do conclude the goats in Matthew 25 will be roaming the earth during the future thousand year period. So don't confuse what I believe with what they believe, as if I believe the same when I don't.

Truth7t7 · Dec 24, 2017

DavidPT said:
You obviously haven't been paying close enough attention to posts I have made in the past then. I never one time claimed goats would be alive and roaming about the earth during the future thousand years. I did say mortals would be though. But these are not meaning any of the goats per Matt 25 though. Some Premils do conclude the goats in Matthew 25 will be roaming the earth during the future thousand year period. So don't confuse what I believe with what they believe, as if I believe the same when I don't.

Please explain your "Three Group" interpretation of Matthew 25:31-46

1. Sheep/Righteous

2. Goats/Intermediate state

3. Wicked/Satanist-Witches-Athiest

Where are these three groups in Matthew 25:31-46?

Davy · Dec 24, 2017

Truly is funny here, and most definitely a huge sign of 'churchianity' from the doctrines of men.

Just because Matthew 25 does not specifically mention the future "thousand years" reign of Christ Jesus and His elect is not proof that there is no such period.

Revelation 20 does... mention Christ's future "thousand years" reign, very specifically too. And when God's Word shows that kind of specific declaration, it's an anchor in His Word, meaning it will definitely occur literally as written.

The Zechariah 14 chapter also includes a time period after Christ's return when the wicked will still exist and be required to come up to Jerusalem to worship The King. That right there is enough to point to Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.

So... to throw away the specific future "thousand years" reign of Christ and His elect after His return just because Matt.25 doesn't mention it means to kind of chop The Bible up into pieces, like chopping off everything written after Matthew 25. That is a huge... sign of ignorance, and a major sign of men's traditions toying with The Word of God.

Marilyn C · Dec 24, 2017

BABerean2 said:
So you have divided up the heavenly Jerusalem into two different sections in order to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

And I guess you are still going to promote the idea of a "Gentile Church" even though when the Church began almost all of its members were Israelites. Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36.

You are "wrongly" dividing the Word of God, by dividing up the Saints in New Jerusalem.

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, shows the error of the doctrine that John Nelson Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War.

.

BABerean,

We know there is no such thing as a `Gentile ` Church.

The Body of Christ - the Ekklesia - are called out of Israel and the nations.
Israel - also the Ekklesia - were called out of the nations.

So...as to the heavenly Jerusalem, described in God`s word as -

1. Mount Zion - the Ruling area
2. The city area.

These areas were promised to -

1. Mount Zion in the third heaven - Christ`s Rulership - seat of power & authority.
The Father said, `I have set my king on my holy hill of Mount Zion.` (Ps. 2 6)
Jesus said,` To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on My throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)
`...made us kings and priests...` (Rev. 1: 6)

2. The city area - `...he (God) has prepared a city for them.` (OT saints - Heb. 11: 16)

Note: `God has provided SOMETHING BETTER (great dominion) for US, so that they should not be made perfect apart from us.` (Heb. 11: 40)

The Body of Christ ruling in the 3rd heaven has the greater dominion, however when the city comes down and the OT saints are placed there then together in both realms under Christ God`s purposes are complete - Christ ruling through His people in every realm.

Marilyn.

LastSeven · Dec 24, 2017

seventysevens said:
No it does not , nothing mythical about it
and just the other day you said it was real and literal fire

purgatory is the myth as it is not real

I said I believe the lake of fire is "real" but it's probably more symbolic than literal. So it's real in the sense that there is a real punishment reserved for certain people.

I don't know anything about 7th day adventist beliefs, and I don't care either. I just believe what I believe.

As for hell, you might want to do some research. It's not what you think.

BABerean2 · Dec 24, 2017

Marilyn C said:
BABerean,

We know there is no such thing as a `Gentile ` Church.

The Body of Christ - the Ekklesia - are called out of Israel and the nations.
Israel - also the Ekklesia - were called out of the nations.

So...as to the heavenly Jerusalem, described in God`s word as -

1. Mount Zion - the Ruling area
2. The city area.

These areas were promised to -

1. Mount Zion in the third heaven - Christ`s Rulership - seat of power & authority.
The Father said, `I have set my king on my holy hill of Mount Zion.` (Ps. 2 6)
Jesus said,` To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on My throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)
`...made us kings and priests...` (Rev. 1: 6)

2. The city area - `...he (God) has prepared a city for them.` (OT saints - Heb. 11: 16)

Note: `God has provided SOMETHING BETTER (great dominion) for US, so that they should not be made perfect apart from us.` (Heb. 11: 40)

The Body of Christ ruling in the 3rd heaven has the greater dominion, however when the city comes down and the OT saints are placed there then together in both realms under Christ God`s purposes are complete - Christ ruling through His people in every realm.

Marilyn.

Hebrews 11:40

(CJB) because God had planned something better that would involve us, so that only with us would they be brought to the goal.

(ESV) since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

(Geneva) God prouiding a better thing for vs, that they without vs should not be made perfite.

(GW) God planned to give us something very special so that we would gain eternal life with them.

(LITV-TSP) God having foreseen something better concerning us, that they should not be perfected apart from us.

(KJV) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

(KJV+) GodG2316 having providedG4265 someG5100 better thingG2909 forG4012 us,G2257 thatG2443 they withoutG5565 usG2257 should notG3361 be made perfect.G5048

(NKJV) God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

(YLT) God for us something better having provided, that apart from us they might not be made perfect.

The verse is saying the opposite of what you are claiming.
We will be one with the Old Testament Saints.

.

Truth7t7 · Dec 24, 2017

LastSeven said:
I said I believe the lake of fire is "real" but it's probably more symbolic than literal. So it's real in the sense that there is a real punishment reserved for certain people.

I don't know anything about 7th day adventist beliefs, and I don't care either. I just believe what I believe.

As for hell, you might want to do some research. It's not what you think.

Hell is exactly as Luke 16:19-31 states, pretty clear, a place of torment as the burning flame, taught from the creator Jesus Christ himself.

The lake of fire, no guess work there either
Revelation 14:10-11

"Soul Sleep" not found in the scripture.

After the unsaved leave this body, its hell

After the saved leave this body, Abrahams Boosom.

Both waiting for the resurrection and final judgment.

Name In The Book Of Life: New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem Revelation chapters 21 & 22

Name Not In The Book Of Life: Lake Of Fire, Revelation 20:11-15

DavidPT · Dec 24, 2017

Truth7t7 said:
Please explain your "Three Group" interpretation of Matthew 25:31-46

1. Sheep/Righteous

2. Goats/Intermediate state

3. Wicked/Satanist-Witches-Athiest

Where are these three groups in Matthew 25:31-46?

You keep indicating I'm creating 3 groups. Except it's actually 4 groups at least, not 3. 1---the sheep. 2---the goats. 3----the rest of the dead who don't live again until the thousand years are finished. 4----mortals remaining of the nations which came against Jerusalem(Zechariah 14).

There may be more groups, too, but at least 4 as a minimum. Your number 3 above, they would likely fit with the 3rd group, the rest of the dead. I don't take the group wicked to account for everyone who do not fit into the sheep or goats groups though. There has also to be some remaining mortals that fit group 4.

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