Michael stands up - Daniel 12:1, Revelation 12:7-9

[dwb001]

Point out in Revelation where the Gospel stops.

That is my question to you.

You said in your post Jesus last words... but that was not the last thing Jesus said on Earth. Jesus spoke in Revelation but you ignored that fact.

 

[Douggg]

Since there are so many new members to the forum...

From the Eschatology Statement of Purpose...

"When you disagree, address the content of the post and not the poster."

 

[dwb001]

From the Eschatology Statement of Purpose...

"When you disagree, address the content of the post and not the poster."

And your point being?

 

[Douggg]

And your point being?

I went back and edited my post. The point being don't attack other posters, and start arguments of personalities.

 

[dwb001]

I went back and edited my post.

Thank you.

 

[grafted branch]

It stopped at the Cross. The need ended with the physical act of the Cross, never to be utilized again. Just like Abraham's bosom was emptied, the economy of the Temple was just an empty physical reminder of the past.

Fair enough, I’m not personally arguing that the old covenant still had validity or was binding after the cross. I’ve only been pointing out that there were believers who were still zealous for the law and it would appear that the apostles and the Holy Spirit were content with that, hence the different burdens put on the Gentiles.

Because it is still going to every creature and into all the world. You have the Gospel. Should it have stopped before you heard it?

No, nor do I think a pastor should stop preaching just because everyone in the church he’s pastoring is already saved. There is no command given to stop preaching the gospel at some point, we are only told that the end comes.

I have given what I think Paul was referring to in Romans 10:18, we both know this verse is absolutely true, but you haven’t given your explanation. Surely you aren’t saying that when Paul states “their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world” in Romans 10:18 that he was wrong. Please give us your interpretation.

 

[CoreyD]

I don’t think the word “world” itself is referring to the old covenant but when we see a world ending calamity being described it can mean the end of a nation or the destruction of Jerusalem, which I associate with the old covenant vanishing.

On what scriptural basis did you derive this?

Personally I’m not a proponent of dual fulfillment. I think there was a thread on this some time ago and nobody was able to give a clear example of a prophecy that has already been fulfilled more than once. I do think there are many examples of foreshadowing and type/antitype but I’m skeptical about dual fulfillment. If you know of an example I would be interested in looking at it.

Psalm 72 -> Fulfilled during Solomon's reign; Future fulfillment during the Greater Solomon's - Jesus Christ's - reign Matthew 12:42
Isaiah 11 -> Fulfilled in David's reign; Future fulfillment during the Greater David's - Jesus Christ's - reign - Isaiah 53:2; Revelation 5:5
Isaiah 65 -> Fulfilled during the restoration of pure worship in Jerusalem - Compare Isaiah 51:16 with Isaiah 65:17; Future fulfillment during the restoring of paradise under God's kingdom.
Habakkuk 1:5, 6 -> Prophecy regarding the Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem; Acts 13:40, 41 Regarding a future fulfillment - Likely related to the conquest of Jerusalem by the Romans.

The question asked at Matthew 24:3 was twofold, and thus the answer given is a dual prophecy.

What is Revelation describing at Revelation 6:1-8? When was it written?
Is it not describing what Jesus foretold at Matthew 24:6-8 and Luke 21:10, 11?
Since it is written after 70 A.D., it could not be describing the tribulation of that period.

The word “nations” in Matthew 34:14 is <1484> and is usually translated as Gentiles. I do think this is referring to the Roman Empire as that is one of the beast in Daniel and even though a country such as China was known during this time, it was not included in the progression of the beasts.

In Matthew 24:14, the context makes clear, the word nations refer to the world (heathen world) - all the nations - the whole world.

 

[CoreyD]

I have given what I think Paul was referring to in Romans 10:18, we both know this verse is absolutely true, but you haven’t given your explanation. Surely you aren’t saying that when Paul states “their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world” in Romans 10:18 that he was wrong. Please give us your interpretation.

Read the entire Chapter grafted. Who refused to hear? Whom is Paul referring to, that the sound went out to? It's right there in the passage. There is no need for anyone's interpretation.

 

[grafted branch]

On what scriptural basis did you derive this?

In Ezekiel 32 the destruction of Egypt is prophesied and this has been fulfilled. Egypt was literally destroyed but metaphorical, figurative descriptions were used to describe that event.

Psalm 72 -> Fulfilled during Solomon's reign; Future fulfillment during the Greater Solomon's - Jesus Christ's - reign Matthew 12:42
Isaiah 11 -> Fulfilled in David's reign; Future fulfillment during the Greater David's - Jesus Christ's - reign - Isaiah 53:2; Revelation 5:5
Isaiah 65 -> Fulfilled during the restoration of pure worship in Jerusalem - Compare Isaiah 51:16 with Isaiah 65:17; Future fulfillment during the restoring of paradise under God's kingdom.
Habakkuk 1:5, 6 -> Prophecy regarding the Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem; Acts 13:40, 41 Regarding a future fulfillment - Likely related to the conquest of Jerusalem by the Romans.

Thanks for the references on dual fulfillment.

In Matthew 24:14, the context makes clear, the word nations refer to the world (heathen world) - all the nations - the whole world.

The word world in Matthew 24:14 is <3625> oikoumene. Currently we use the word world to describe the entire planet but in the first century it was used to describe the Roman Empire.

Here is what HELPS word study says

3625 oikouménē (from 3611 /oikéō, "to inhabit, dwell") – the inhabited earth, i.e. all people living on the inhabited globe.

[3625 (oikouménē) is "the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation, the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world (orbis terrarum), for all outside it was regarded as of no account" (Souter).

3625 (oikouménē) literally means "the inhabited (land)." It was "originally used by the Greeks to denote the land inhabited by themselves, in contrast with barbarian countries; afterward, when the Greeks became subject to the Romans, 'the entire Roman world;' still later, for 'the whole inhabited world' "

Read the entire Chapter grafted. Who refused to hear? Whom is Paul referring to, that the sound went out to? It's right there in the passage. There is no need for anyone's interpretation.

I agree, it’s all right there but I’m not sure if @Timtofly has a different interpretation or not. He seems to want to argue that their words weren’t preached unto the ends of the world.

 

[CoreyD]

In Ezekiel 32 the destruction of Egypt is prophesied and this has been fulfilled. Egypt was literally destroyed but metaphorical, figurative descriptions were used to describe that event.

I am not sure what that has to do with this :

I don’t think the word “world” itself is referring to the old covenant but when we see a world ending calamity being described it can mean the end of a nation or the destruction of Jerusalem, which I associate with the old covenant vanishing.

Thanks for the references on dual fulfillment.

Any time.
Does it change your mind about the scriptures in Matthew 24?

The word world in Matthew 24:14 is <3625> oikoumene. Currently we use the word world to describe the entire planet but in the first century it was used to describe the Roman Empire.

Here is what HELPS word study says

3625 oikouménē (from 3611 /oikéō, "to inhabit, dwell") – the inhabited earth, i.e. all people living on the inhabited globe.

[3625 (oikouménē) is "the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation, the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world (orbis terrarum), for all outside it was regarded as of no account" (Souter).

3625 (oikouménē) literally means "the inhabited (land)." It was "originally used by the Greeks to denote the land inhabited by themselves, in contrast with barbarian countries; afterward, when the Greeks became subject to the Romans, 'the entire Roman world;' still later, for 'the whole inhabited world' "

I thought we were talking about the context of Jesus words.
I'm really more so interested in what Jesus said, and the context surrounding his words.

Jesus said, And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in holos: whole, complete, all oikoumené: the inhabited earth as a testimony to pas: all, every ethnos: pl. the nations (as distinct from Isr.), and then the end will come. Matthew 24:14

In Luke 21:26, what Greek word do you have? I see οἰκουμένῃ - the inhabited earth.
Here, we see οἰκουμένῃ.

upon the world;

οἰκουμένῃ (oikoumenē)

3625: the inhabited earth

the fem. pres. pass. part. of oikeó

At Matthew 28:18-20, Jesus said,
“All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Go therefore and make disciples of pas: all, every ethnos: pl. the nations (as distinct from Isr.), baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

I'm looking at these verses and their surrounding contexts, and I am seeing the entire (complete) inhabited earth; all the nations (plural),.
All the inhabited earth, and all the nations, don't sound to me like Rome.

Do you believe the apocalypse is only for Rome also?

I agree, it’s all right there but I’m not sure if @Timtofly has a different interpretation or not. He seems to want to argue that their words weren’t preached unto the ends of the world.

So, you don't believe the world here is Rome?

Did you read the entire Chapter?
Romans 10:
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: “Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world.”
19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: “I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says: “I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
21 But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Looking at the context, is the focus not Israel?
So, is not all the earth and the ends of the world, confined to the lands inhabited by Israel?

The temple in Jerusalem was the central location for worship, so we wouldn't expect Jews to travel to China, or the U.S.
Did the disciples even know that the U.S. existed? Do you think they had a globe of the world, by chance.

Reasonably, all creatures under heaven, and the ends of the world, would certainly not be the entire globe, here.
Jesus' prophesy though, is different. It involves the entire world. Matthew 28:18-20; Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8
The context is important, if we are to understand what is being said. Matthew 10:5, 6; Acts 5:28; Colossians 1:23.

Anyway, I can't beat you over the head, here , because I can't pull out a scripture that directly resolves this conflict. That's why I tend to avoid debates where interpretations take the driver seat.
I like to stick to discussions, where the scriptures are driving. Interpretation debates are never ending.

So, I'll leave you and @Spiritual Jew to trash this one out.

 

[grafted branch]

I am not sure what that has to do with this :

The point I was trying to make was that a world ending calamity can be seen in Ezekiel 32:7-8 where it says the stars are dark, the sun is covered with a cloud, the moon does not give her light, all the bright lights of heaven are dark over thee, and darkness upon thy land. There is no reason to think this happened literally, it’s meant to be metaphorical. There is also no reason why this same kind of language wouldn’t have been used to describe the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. As I said some people see this as a foreshadow of 70AD.

Any time.
Does it change your mind about the scriptures in Matthew 24?

No, what I would need to change my mind is evidence of something that was prophesied already being fulfilled twice. It’s easy to say something that has been fulfilled will be fulfilled again in the future but there is no evidence this type of thing has happened in the past.

For example in Jeremiah 25:11-12, where the Jews would serve the king of Babylon for 70 years, this has already been fulfilled once, but if you could show where the Jews served two separate 70 years terms under Babylon then you would have a much stronger position than just saying something will be fulfilled again in the future.

Also you stated Revelation was written after 70AD, I believe Revelation was written prior to 70AD but that’s a whole different argument.

You are placing Revelation 6:1-8 as a still future event, which I think is incorrect. The problem with this is that in Revelation 6:9-10 the souls that are slain ask how long and are given the answer to that question in verse 11, that they should rest a little season.

If this is still future, then everyone who has read Revelation 6 knows the answer to the question, which makes asking the question in the first place a lack of faith. God’s not going to give a different answer and there is no reason to wonder how long, we all already know how long. The only way this makes sense is if it already took place prior to the writing of Revelation.

 

[CoreyD]

The point I was trying to make was that a world ending calamity can be seen in Ezekiel 32:7-8 where it says the stars are dark, the sun is covered with a cloud, the moon does not give her light, all the bright lights of heaven are dark over thee, and darkness upon thy land. There is no reason to think this happened literally, it’s meant to be metaphorical. There is also no reason why this same kind of language wouldn’t have been used to describe the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. As I said some people see this as a foreshadow of 70AD.


No, what I would need to change my mind is evidence of something that was prophesied already being fulfilled twice. It’s easy to say something that has been fulfilled will be fulfilled again in the future but there is no evidence this type of thing has happened in the past.

For example in Jeremiah 25:11-12, where the Jews would serve the king of Babylon for 70 years, this has already been fulfilled once, but if you could show where the Jews served two separate 70 years terms under Babylon then you would have a much stronger position than just saying something will be fulfilled again in the future.

Also you stated Revelation was written after 70AD, I believe Revelation was written prior to 70AD but that’s a whole different argument.

You are placing Revelation 6:1-8 as a still future event, which I think is incorrect. The problem with this is that in Revelation 6:9-10 the souls that are slain ask how long and are given the answer to that question in verse 11, that they should rest a little season.

If this is still future, then everyone who has read Revelation 6 knows the answer to the question, which makes asking the question in the first place a lack of faith. God’s not going to give a different answer and there is no reason to wonder how long, we all already know how long. The only way this makes sense is if it already took place prior to the writing of Revelation.

It's been interesting talking to you grafted.

 

[Timtofly]

That is my question to you.

You said in your post Jesus last words... but that was not the last thing Jesus said on Earth. Jesus spoke in Revelation but you ignored that fact.

I never said they were His last words. I said, "This is the last word of Jesus as prophesy that needs to be fulfilled:"

The Gospel is the last word that needs to be fulfilled for any prophecy. Once the Gospel stops, that is the end.

 

[Timtofly]

I have given what I think Paul was referring to in Romans 10:18, we both know this verse is absolutely true, but you haven’t given your explanation. Surely you aren’t saying that when Paul states “their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world” in Romans 10:18 that he was wrong. Please give us your interpretation.

Psalms 19:1-7

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple."

Paul was quoting the Psalm. In verse 15, Paul was quoting Isaiah. God has always shown His love and redemption throughout His creation. The point is as long as there are new humans in need of the Gospel, the Gospel will continue to go out. The end is not predicated on the Gospel going every where. The Gospel will continue until the end.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Matthew got to the end at that point. Then he started to go back to events prior to the end. Romans 10 is not about eschatology. Paul is pointing out that His people had no excuse in claiming ignorance about God, and God's plan of redemption.

"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

 

[Timtofly]

I agree, it’s all right there but I’m not sure if @Timtofly has a different interpretation or not. He seems to want to argue that their words weren’t preached unto the ends of the world.

The physical boundary of physical earth as defined by the Romans? Sounds limited to human will.

Or to all people to ever live on the earth, ie God's plan for creation?

 

[Timtofly]

Looking at the context, is the focus not Israel?
So, is not all the earth and the ends of the world, confined to the lands inhabited by Israel?

Paul was quoting Psalm 19.

Atheist argue about many who never get an opportunity to hear.

Perhaps Paul was pointing out that the rest of the earth would be less ignorant than Israel, if Israel kept rejecting the Gospel?

The rest of the world would provoke Israel to jealousy. I don't think that has ever happened, though. The church became apostate faster than Israel did. Well not including those who were rebelling in open view of God and Moses on mount Sinai.

Just because the Gospel has gone out, does not mean that all have accepted that Gospel. That fact was evident even in David's generation.

 

[Timtofly]

You are placing Revelation 6:1-8 as a still future event, which I think is incorrect. The problem with this is that in Revelation 6:9-10 the souls that are slain ask how long and are given the answer to that question in verse 11, that they should rest a little season.

The symbolism of the 5th Seal is the entire church body, billions maybe. Your symbolism is too limited in scope.

The Lamb slain is representative of salvation. Those slain are representative of leaving Adam's dead corruptible flesh behind. Unrighteousness is what needed to be avenged. The end of sin and wickedness being in control of creation. The entire church body had to wait in Paradise, while Jesus and the angels are on the earth gathering the final harvest. Many redeemed just like them, but those redeemed after that point will remain on the earth, not part of the church.

"until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

It does not say until the rest entered Paradise. It said until the rest physically died. It only says they would die. It does not state what happens after they die. The point is shedding Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

 

[dwb001]

I never said they were His last words. I said, "This is the last word of Jesus as prophesy that needs to be fulfilled:"

The Gospel is the last word that needs to be fulfilled for any prophecy. Once the Gospel stops, that is the end.

You say you didn't say last word

Then sll your quotes say last word.

 

[grafted branch]

Paul was quoting the Psalm. In verse 15, Paul was quoting Isaiah. God has always shown His love and redemption throughout His creation. The point is as long as there are new humans in need of the Gospel, the Gospel will continue to go out. The end is not predicated on the Gospel going every where. The Gospel will continue until the end.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Matthew got to the end at that point. Then he started to go back to events prior to the end. Romans 10 is not about eschatology. Paul is pointing out that His people had no excuse in claiming ignorance about God, and God's plan of redemption.

I agree with what you’re saying here and Romans 10:18 declares that the end point of the gospel being preached in all the world can be reached through creation, and that there is no difference between Jew and Greek (Romans 10:12). This also shows how the gospel can be preached in all the world without literally every single person being literally preached to by another person.

You say Matthew 24:14 got to the end point but you seem to be saying that the end point comes when the last human gets born.

Unless you think no babies are born in the millennium, the end being referred to in Matthew 24:14 would have to take place at the end of the millennium if this is true, not prior to the millennium.

 

[grafted branch]

The symbolism of the 5th Seal is the entire church body, billions maybe. Your symbolism is too limited in scope.

If that is so, then are you planning on asking the question of how long dost thou not judge? And what answer do you think you will get?