Met with the Missionaries?

[feo]

My heart doesn't pay the funds to the church it pays it to the Lord.
If its mis-used by men God will hold them accountable for those funds that I contribute in faith.

i Believe its Our Job to Hold Each And Everyone Accountable of Their actions...(this is Very Biblical) i Think its Wonderful That Mormons are Giving Towards Their church. God Has Created us as Smart Creatures Though, i Think God Expects us to Use Our brains When Giving; by Not Blindly giving and Not Holding Anyone accountable with The Lord's Money.

When i Was a Child, i Attended a Church That Would Give "extra prayers" to Those who Donated More Than $100 towards a Staind Glass Window. in my Opinion, The Leaders of The church Are Merely Human, and Prone to Mistakes.

Do you have to watch where every cent is paid?

Yes! Simply because Nothing we 0wn is Ours, its The Lord's. i Find it Important to Make Sure That our Money is Being Put to Good Use.

Can't you trust your church?

Not When it Keeps its Finances in Secret.

In tithing the money is a secondary issue. Its a thankful and willing heart that the Lord wants and needs. Have some trust that those funds you give in faith to the Lord, He will require accountability on its behalf.

The Lord Does Require Accountability, Which i Said Above. But How Are You to keep Your Church Elders Accountable if They Keep secrets From You?

Its not all about the $$$

You're Right- its all About Keeping Secrets And Being Deceiving.

 

[MagusAlbertus]

It is well placed and as such why would I question giving a mere ten percent back to Lord when it is he who gives me what I have.

you should have the ability to question how men are using the faith of others. Light never shown something hidden in the light! Only shadow.

every time someone who happens to be Mormon brings a valuable precept to the table

hey, start a ‘valuable precepts of Mormonism’ thread, if it’s truly valuable our shining light on that precept won’t expose anything new and we’ll all be shown a brighter light.

Besides its the boy who cried wolf approach and no one will take your multitude of questions seriously

well, you can sit-around pointing out ‘problems’ with other peoples ideas all day long as long as you don’t care about how often you yourself are proven wrong. But when I as a few direct questions I don’t get direct answers, I just get explanations of faith... which is fine for keeping your Sunday school in the flock, but not exactly the kind of apologetics we’re going for here.

My heart doesn't pay the funds to the church it pays it to the Lord.

that’s great! But you should also be able to hold the men of your church accountable so you can know that corruption has not crept in. If the church Jesus himself created fell apart then why couldn’t one ‘re instated’ ?

Can't you trust your church?

sure, but more light is always a good thing. If my church said “you can’t have a full accounting of our expenditures” then I’d question, at very least, why I should trust these people.

man is corruptible, more light can only harm the darkness.

 

[elderbell]

hey, start a ‘valuable precepts of Mormonism’ thread, if it’s truly valuable our shining light on that precept won’t expose anything new and we’ll all be shown a brighter light.

Take off that Spiritual blindfold you have on so you can actually see the light when it hits you in the face.

 

[MagusAlbertus]

Take off that Spiritual blindfold you have on so you can actually see the light when it hits you in the face

light still doesn't hurt anything but darkness.

Someone here is hiding his ‘light’ under a bowl. The other is open and upfront about the light that he’s been given to share.

why are you flaming me mr. Bell?

**

i'll findout tomarrow, for now i'm off to sleep, God bless you mr. Bell.

 

[stray bullet]

I am a Roman Catholic deacon, and many of those to whom I minister have met with and been converted by the Mormon missionaries. Curious as to what the fervor was, I have also been meeting with them. Much of what they have to say is very intersting, and I respect their dedication in their beliefs (if only more Catholics would do the same ). Nevertheless, their doctrine seems so unusual from that which I have been taught. And yet, at the same time, the words I read in their Mormon book seem, in many ways, very consistent with teachings of Christ. Needless to say, I'm confused because of that which many write in here and that which I've been taught. In the end, I can see now why so many of my acquaintences have been baptized Mormon. They are very good at what they do, these Mormon missionaries, and more importantly, they SINCERELY believe what they teach. This makes their presentation extremely powerful.

Que les vayan con Dios.

You are in Mexico? What would hispanics want to convert to a racist religion?

The best way to steer clear of Mormonism is to get to know it. Mormons are very good at teaching things about family (which would explain popularity in Mexico), while avoiding its various absurdities (and racism). I don't mean to insult anyone here, but I think the only way for anyone to swallow the silliness of it all is to convert first.

 

[elderbell]

Racist religion? Can we tone down the slander? Since when do we have any involvement of Racist activities? Backup that statement.

 

[baker]

My heart doesn't pay the funds to the church it pays it to the Lord.

Tom

Twhite,

I agree with you here. I would add that my wallet and efforts are also to the lord for my charitable giving.

But my question, and it really is a serious one, is why the lds church "requires" it to go to them.

I am a past executive director and current board member of a couple of homes for boys and girls who come from bad environments but are otherwise smart kids. Our program houses, feeds and puts them through middle school, private high school and college. It is one of the most worthwhile christian programs I've been involved with. The kids come from and practice various faiths, including Islam and Judaism. I give money, time, and raise money for the program. All publically disclosed.

The money I give would, by itself, meet any biblical requirement for "tithe", let alone the time and effort. But I do not give this to any "church" so to speak. Also, the program and it's outcome are one of the greatest examples of what Christ teaches.

If I was lds and chose to use this as my "tithe to the lord" requirement and give no money directly to the church, why isn't that acceptable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but under that form of tithing, I would not meet your temple recommend requirement, would I?

 

[rnmomof7]

Twhite,

I agree with you here. I would add that my wallet and efforts are also to the lord for my charitable giving.

But my question, and it really is a serious one, is why the lds church "requires" it to go to them.

I am a past executive director and current board member of a couple of homes for boys and girls who come from bad environments but are otherwise smart kids. Our program houses, feeds and puts them through middle school, private high school and college. It is one of the most worthwhile christian programs I've been involved with. The kids come from and practice various faiths, including Islam and Judaism. I give money, time, and raise money for the program. All publically disclosed.

The money I give would, by itself, meet any biblical requirement for "tithe", let alone the time and effort. But I do not give this to any "church" so to speak. Also, the program and it's outcome are one of the greatest examples of what Christ teaches.

If I was lds and chose to use this as my "tithe to the lord" requirement and give no money directly to the church, why isn't that acceptable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but under that form of tithing, I would not meet your temple recommend requirement, would I?

The Mormon church is very wealthy .
That is because they have unpaid clergy , so only a small amount is for the local church
The bulk goes to Salt Lake city were it is "invested "

I have no doubt that fund a lot of charitable works aimed at getting converts or to help church members in need (as all our local churches do )

But the fact is that the mandated tithe falls into a black hole , unlike the tithe of most of us ...where we know exactly where it is going


BTW the prophet is paid handsomely

 

[twhite982]

well, you can sit-around pointing out ‘problems’ with other peoples ideas all day long as long as you don’t care about how often you yourself are proven wrong. But when I as a few direct questions I don’t get direct answers, I just get explanations of faith... which is fine for keeping your Sunday school in the flock, but not exactly the kind of apologetics we’re going for here.

Here is your statement to me

sorry! It’s a shot-gun aproach, it’s hard to get a direct answer on anything so I figure if I ask enough questions I might get an answer on something.

I've told you several different times to focus and stick to the point of the topic. You are complaining that no one is directly answering your questions, but can you blame anyone. You either throw out 20 questions or they're "pointed" in some way.

I have directly answered you several times and also have invited you to a discussion to focus in a topic. The problem isn't that I don't want to discuss the topic it seems thjat you don't, since we can't seem to get anywhere without you bringing up several different un-related points to the topic at hand.

I'm not critisizing you, I'm only DIRECTLY answering your question of why you're not getting answers to your question.


As far as your comments about tithing and not seeing where the money goes, I've already stated I see the effects of that money almost every day.

You're right about accountability, but I think the Lord places a higher priority on concentrating on Him and not so much about the money. This is why I said I'm giving to the Lord NOT the church.

Thanks,

Tom

 

[stray bullet]

Racist religion? Can we tone down the slander? Since when do we have any involvement of Racist activities? Backup that statement.

Are you telling me that the Mormon church has no racist teachings, no racial discrimination in the church, had no racist statements made by the founders and no racist practices?

Even the changes made in 1978 don't change the fact what they teach is racist, what was done was racist and what was said was racist.

 

[twhite982]

Twhite,

I agree with you here. I would add that my wallet and efforts are also to the lord for my charitable giving.

I'm glad we agree on that.

But my question, and it really is a serious one, is why the lds church "requires" it to go to them.

For similiar reasons that you provided below with the orginization you donate to.

The church is in a material world and things cost money. I use almost daily resources provided by the church. While I can't name all the things that are funded through tithing (maybe someone else can) I do see some clear benefits of that tithing that I enjoy.

My focus is more on a grateful and cheerful heart as I give. Not gratitude to the to church for my blessings since they ALL come from the Lord. Just as Jesus asked the rich young man to sell all he had, as a test for him to see his priorities and loyalties, I use tithing in a similiar manner to help me with my priorities to the Lord.

Anyone knows things cost money and I do expect the church to use the money I donate to the Lord for purposes that the Lord sees as appropriate. As I stated earlier, I benefit from some of those tithing purposes, chapels, stake centers, temples, etc...

I used to be very materialistic in times past. Tithing has helped me come to grips with this problem and has blessed me because of my faithfulness to the Lord.

I am a past executive director and current board member of a couple of homes for boys and girls who come from bad environments but are otherwise smart kids. Our program houses, feeds and puts them through middle school, private high school and college. It is one of the most worthwhile christian programs I've been involved with. The kids come from and practice various faiths, including Islam and Judaism. I give money, time, and raise money for the program. All publically disclosed.

The money I give would, by itself, meet any biblical requirement for "tithe", let alone the time and effort. But I do not give this to any "church" so to speak. Also, the program and it's outcome are one of the greatest examples of what Christ teaches.

If I was lds and chose to use this as my "tithe to the lord" requirement and give no money directly to the church, why isn't that acceptable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but under that form of tithing, I would not meet your temple recommend requirement, would I?

I may have mentioned to you before about the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.

By the letter of the law you would NOT meet temple requirements.

By the spirit of the law and if I was the interviewer I would say that you would. Of course there are other issues, but they're irrelevant right now.

On a personal example for me of this exact thing you're talking about is regarding fast offerings, which we pay to the church when we fast once a month. The money not used from the meals that are fasted are donated to the church.

My mother in law lives in a third world country and often has difficulty providing for her basic needs. I am not by any means wealthy or close to it and I have had difficult times in helping her with her financial matters.

I counseled with my bishop and he gave me the advice to use my fast offering to give to her in stead of the church, since the purpose of it is to feed those who are without. I do this every month.

This is a great example of the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. There is always a principle behind every requirement / commandment that is far more important than the law itself.

Tom

 

[AMMON]

The Mormon church is very wealthy .
That is because they have unpaid clergy , so only a small amount is for the local church
The bulk goes to Salt Lake city were it is "invested "

I have no doubt that fund a lot of charitable works aimed at getting converts or to help church members in need (as all our local churches do )

But the fact is that the mandated tithe falls into a black hole , unlike the tithe of most of us ...where we know exactly where it is going


BTW the prophet is paid handsomely

I am a financial clerk for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. There is more oversight of finances in the Church than in my law firm. They are highly scrutinzed. And the Prophet is not "paid handsomely."

 

[twhite982]

Are you telling me that the Mormon church has no racist teachings, no racial discrimination in the church, had no racist statements made by the founders and no racist practices?

Even the changes made in 1978 don't change the fact what they teach is racist, what was done was racist and what was said was racist.

The Mormon church as a whole is not rascist.

I have seen statements given by a few leaders by my judgement that I considered rascist. Whether or not this was the accepted view of the day,
I do not care.

Yet as a whole, the church is NOT rascist.

I'm sure you're referring to the denial of the priesthood to the blacks.
Most people don't know that Joseph Smith ordained Eliza Abel (who is black) to the priesthood back in 1834 (I'm not 100% about the date).

Why would he who helped orginize this church do this if he was rascist. In fact given the view of blacks back then this was going against the grain and took critisism from outsiders.

Additionaly, blacks were never forbidden from joining the church and there are many examples of that.

Tom

 

[twhite982]

The Mormon church is very wealthy .
That is because they have unpaid clergy , so only a small amount is for the local church
The bulk goes to Salt Lake city were it is "invested "

I have no doubt that fund a lot of charitable works aimed at getting converts or to help church members in need (as all our local churches do )

But the fact is that the mandated tithe falls into a black hole , unlike the tithe of most of us ...where we know exactly where it is going


BTW the prophet is paid handsomely

In one breath you say the members don't know where the funds go and in the next you most goes to Salt Lake with a smidgin' going to the local church.


How much is the prophet paid?
I'd really like to know.


Tom

 

[AMMON]

Blacks and the Priesthoood

I'm going to try and make this a simple as possible, as it was explained to me in the Missionary Training Center. In the premortal life, certain spirits made choices that weren't, shall we say, wise. Their choices caused them to forfeit the blessings of holding the priesthood in this lifetime. Those people were identified in physical form with blackened skin. In 1978, the last soul who had been a part of that premortal group passed away; thus, blacks were then allowed to have the priesthood.

And I maintain that if had been a politically correct decision, surely the Church would have made it during the Civil Rights Movement. Further, where the Church constantly wants to grow, if it had been a political decision, it would have been made as soon as socially acceptable (e.g., 1964) in order to encourage further growth of the Church.

Finally, there is a biblical basis for the issue prohibiting the blacks from receiving the priesthood, among other things. See the story of Cain and his descendants. Were the sons of Adam racist?

 

[stray bullet]

The Mormon church as a whole is not rascist.

I have seen statements given by a few leaders by my judgement that I considered rascist. Whether or not this was the accepted view of the day,
I do not care.

Yet as a whole, the church is NOT rascist.

I'm sure you're referring to the denial of the priesthood to the blacks.
Most people don't know that Joseph Smith ordained Eliza Abel (who is black) to the priesthood back in 1834 (I'm not 100% about the date).

Why would he who helped orginize this church do this if he was rascist. In fact given the view of blacks back then this was going against the grain and took critisism from outsiders.

Additionaly, blacks were never forbidden from joining the church and there are many examples of that.

Tom

The Church teaches the dark skin of blacks came from where? Last I heard, it was because they were the decendents of Cain, whose dark skin was a sign of their curse.

- Prior to 1978, Mormon missionaries were not even allowed to attempt to proselytize black people
- 'Gospel' was not "carried affirmatively" with them

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses Vol.10.

"Any man having one drop of the seed of Cain in him cannot receive the priesthood." - "That Ye May Not Be Deceived"

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there." -Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1.

 

[AMMON]

The Church teaches the dark skin of blacks came from where? Last I heard, it was because they were the decendents of Cain, whose dark skin was a sign of their curse.

- Prior to 1978, Mormon missionaries were not even allowed to attempt to proselytize black people
- 'Gospel' was not "carried affirmatively" with them

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses Vol.10.

"Any man having one drop of the seed of Cain in him cannot receive the priesthood." - "That Ye May Not Be Deceived"

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there." -Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1.

See my above post.

 

[stray bullet]

Blacks and the Priesthoood

I'm going to try and make this a simple as possible, as it was explained to me in the Missionary Training Center. In the premortal life, certain spirits made choices that weren't, shall we say, wise. They're choices caused them to forfeit the blessings of holding the priesthood in this lifetime. Those people were identified in physical form with blackened skin. In 1978, the last soul who had been a part of that premortal group passed away; thus, blacks were then allowed to have the priesthood.

I'm sorry, but do you really believe in this stuff? Can you step out of the box for a second and take a real good look at what you just said.

 

[twhite982]

The Church teaches the dark skin of blacks came from where? Last I heard, it was because they were the decendents of Cain, whose dark skin was a sign of their curse.

- Prior to 1978, Mormon missionaries were not even allowed to attempt to proselytize black people
- 'Gospel' was not "carried affirmatively" with them

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses Vol.10.

"Any man having one drop of the seed of Cain in him cannot receive the priesthood." - "That Ye May Not Be Deceived"

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there." -Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1.

Bottom line is there are no LDS scriptural support for what you've said except for the seed of Cain, which is briefly mentioned in the Book of Abraham.

Care to comment or acknowledge my last post to you?

I've already stated that I feel there have been a few LDS leaders who I feel made rascist statements.

I'm concerned about grounding my beliefs in scripture.
In scripture it is clear God will preferential go to a certain group and avoid another. This is not the support for the restriction because rather bluntly we do not know and the restriction started with Joseph Smith.

We have what and who, but...

We just don't know why?

Tom

 

[AMMON]

I'm sorry, but do you really believe in this stuff?

Absolutley and without question.