Met with the Missionaries?

[AMMON]

I must say it is difficult to say that Mormons don't believe in the "same" God and Jesus Christ as you do, and that we aren't christians. I understand that according to the rules of this forum, because Mormons don't believe the different creeds. However, looking at the definition of a chrisitan, someon who believes in Christ, has recieved testimony from the Holy Spirit that he has risen, and died for our sins, (even in the name of the church it says the church of who..Jesus Christ) we know that Christ is the savior of all mankind. We are most definitely christians. The only difference is looking from our point of view that you must have a Prophet, like it says in Amos 3:7 ,"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. "
Joseph Smith, being the first prophet, and as some call him a liar, came out of his first experience having had a vision seeing God and Jesus Christ, 2 separate beings, he didn't deduce or try and figure out the nature of God like it was done by the priests of Constantine during the writing of Nicean Creed, he actually saw God and Jesus Christ, he knew it, they appeared to him. Now I realize to believethat requires faith, but also looking at a bit of logic on two related themes;
1. During 1820 when Joseph recieved his first vision the mainstream christianity all believed in creeds, now if Joseph really was a "liar" what do liars do? They lie so people will be believe them correct? So why didn't he just follow the mainstream belief, I am positive many more people would have followed him, and less persecuted him, less would have tarred and feathered him, had he said, "Just like everyone believes I saw God he and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one." But he said was something the Christian world did not accept, and did not understand.
And 2. God never changes, Jesus Christ never changes, In Hebrews it says that Jesus is the same today, yesterday, and forever. If they always called prophets, like Jacob, Issac, Abraham, Adam, Noah, Jesus Christ, Peter, Paul, John, why would they stop, are we not loved of God as his children from the ancient times? Why would he just stop calling prophets, even after Jesus Christ had been crucified the Apostles went out preaching, men who had been ORDAINED of God, not just anyone who decided they wanted to.

Good starting post. Welcome home, RM. BTW, you've just stepped into a whole new world here. Good luck.

 

[rnmomof7]

I must say it is difficult to say that Mormons don't believe in the "same" God and Jesus Christ as you do, and that we aren't christians.

Nope not at all.It is a fact .

I understand that according to the rules of this forum, because Mormons don't believe the different creeds.

The creeds define who God is and His nature. You can not affirm them because we have different gods

However, looking at the definition of a chrisitan, someon who believes in Christ, has recieved testimony from the Holy Spirit that he has risen, and died for our sins, (even in the name of the church it says the church of who..Jesus Christ) we know that Christ is the savior of all mankind.

Just like the Jehovah witnesses and the United church of God (armstrong)
You have a different god and a different jesus and a different holy spirit .

That is no minor difference . Your church admits they do not worship jesus. That is because your jesus is not the god of this world. He is the the spirit child of your heavenly father and his wife the heavenly mother . He is the spirit brother of lucifer and your holy spirit.

We no more have the same god as the Jews had with the pagan nations ( lest they infest Israel with their polytheism and false gods God told the jews to destroy

We are most definitely christians. The only difference is looking from our point of view that you must have a Prophet, like it says in Amos 3:7 ,"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. "

(the Jews)

You do not have the liberty to define God as you like and then call yourself a Christian.

The mormon church has only adapted a name they formerly hated and denied as to deceive those they seek to evangelize

Joseph Smith, being the first prophet, and as some call him a liar, came out of his first experience having had a vision seeing God and Jesus Christ, 2 separate beings,

Official version

POGP 1:17*It no sooner appeared than I found myself adelivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I bsaw two Personages•, whose brightness and dglory defy all description, estanding• above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My fBeloved• Son. Hear Him


1832 account of First Vision. This is the only known version of the First Vision written in Joseph Smith's own handwriting. It was also the first time it appeared in print, 12 years after the fact. (All spelling errors occurred in the original text).

"....the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in [the] attitude of calling upon the Lord in the 16th year of my age a pillar of light above the brightness of the Sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filld with the spirit of god and the Lord opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph my son thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy way walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life behold the world lieth in sin at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the gospel and keep not my commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them according to this ungodliness and to bring to pass that which hath been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Apostles behold and lo I come quickly as it witten of me in the cloud clothed in the glory of my Father and my soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great joy and the Lord was with me but could find none that would believe the hevenly vision."

Source: Wilson, William A., BYU Studies, Summer 1971.


In this 'first' First Vision the Lord talks about being 'crucifyed for the world', this would make him Jesus Christ. There's no mention of God the Father appearing as well, let alone God introducing Jesus to Joseph Smith. It was also stated that Joseph was 15 years old at the time. The text above states calling upon the Lord in the 16th year of my age. Considering that a person who is 15 is in reality their 16th year of life, this places Joseph Smith as being 15.

1835 account of the First Vision. this version was written by Warren A. Cowdery who acted as Joseph Smith's clerk. This appeared in Joseph Smith's diary for the date of Monday, Nov. 9th.

Joseph Smith was engaged in a discussion of religion with a Jewish minister called Joshua. Soon he started telling him about the vision he had received.

"....being thus perplexed in mind I retired to the silent grove and bowed down before the Lord, under a realising sense that he had said (if the bible be true) ask and you shall receive knock and it shall be opened seek and you shall find and again, if any man lack wisdom let him ask of God who giveth to all men liberally and upbradeth not; information was what I most desired at this time, in the place above stated or in other words I made a fruitless attempt to pray, my toung seemed to be swolen in my mouth, so that I could not utter, I heard a noise behind me like some person walking towards me. I strove again to pray, but could not the noise of walking seemed to draw nearer, I sprung upon my feet, and looked around, but saw no person or thing that was calculated to produce the noise of walking. I kneeled again my mouth was opened and my toung liberated, I called on the Lord in mighty prayer. A pillar of fire appeared above my head, it presently rested down upon me, and filled me with joy unspeakable, a personage appeared in the midst of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeared like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee, he testifyed unto me that Jesus Christ is the son of God; and I saw many angels in this vision i was about14 years old when I received this first communication...."

In this second version, Jesus appears first, followed by God who forgives Joseph and talks about Jesus. Note Joseph also saw 'many angels' in this version and states that his age was 14.

IF Joseph had indeed received it , he would have remembered it, and not changed stories as he so often did.

Now what is interesting is what your church prophets have taught

Wilford Woodruff - "Joseph was strengthened by the Spirit and power of God, and was enabled to listen to the teachings of the angel. ... The man to whom the angel appeared obeyed the Gospel."* Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 197 (1855)

Not two gods (which is what started the story of the father and jesus being seperate people)


Another opinion from another "prophet"

Heber C. Kimball - "Do you suppose that God in person called upon Joseph Smith, our Prophet? God called upon him; but God did not come himself and call, but he sent Peter to do it."* Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 29 (1857)

and another "prophet"




Wilford Woodruff - "How did it [Mormonism] commence? It commenced by an angel of God flying through the midst of heaven and visiting a young man named Joseph Smith in the year 1827. ... The Lord heard his prayer and sent His angel to him, who informed him that all the sects were wrong"* Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 324 (1869)



and another "prophet"

John Taylor - "None of them was right, just as it was when the Prophet Joseph asked the angel which of the sects was right that he might join it. The answer was that none of them are right."* Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p. 167 (1879)

And now a new word from THE prophet himself

Joseph Smith - "When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi."*(* 1851 Pearl of Great Price, p. 41 )

So as far as I can tell..the foundation of the mormon church is quicksand not rock

he didn't deduce or try and figure out the nature of God like it was done by the priests of Constantine during the writing of Nicean Creed, he actually saw God and Jesus Christ, he knew it, they appeared to him. Now I realize to believethat requires faith, but also looking at a bit of logic on two related themes;

Well he did not even know what he met with let alone the nature of IT.

One or two, god or angels or peter???

1. During 1820 when Joseph recieved his first vision the mainstream christianity all believed in creeds, now if Joseph really was a "liar" what do liars do? They lie so people will be believe them correct? So why didn't he just follow the mainstream belief, I am positive many more people would have followed him, and less persecuted him, less would have tarred and feathered him, had he said, "Just like everyone believes I saw God he and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one."

He was a dreamer and tale teller...this fit right into his predisposition .

I suspect he had no idea at first how far his tale would go. But he had to keep retelling it ..thus the different stories (not only on this)

When he realized what a great scam it was..he got serious about it .
He eventually was totally corrupted .He used the position given him by the easily deceived to feed his greed and lust.

He was no more persecuted than men like Luther, Calvin, Wesley , etc.

But he said was something the Christian world did not accept, and did not understand.
And 2. God never changes, Jesus Christ never changes,

He does not..but a critical look at your doctrine has an every changing jesus .

You have a god that was a man , you have a jesus that moved from spirit child to human to a "god"

You have a god that changes his nature and word constantly...thus your need for rolling revelation ...and the need to defend the error of previous prophets .

In Hebrews it says that Jesus is the same today, yesterday, and forever. If they always called prophets, like Jacob, Issac, Abraham, Adam, Noah, Jesus Christ, Peter, Paul, John, why would they stop, are we not loved of God as his children from the ancient times? Why would he just stop calling prophets, even after Jesus Christ had been crucified the Apostles went out preaching, men who had been ORDAINED of God, not just anyone who decided they wanted to.

Sounds a little like lucifers plan of salvation...

Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. Matthew 7:15

"beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of
God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." John 1;4



Deu 18:18
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Deu 18:19
And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him.

Deu 18:20
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.


Deu 18:21
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?



Deu 18:22
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

I think we can measure the truth of your prophets by this standard .

 

[rnmomof7]

We do not believe the Bible to be tainted. Examine the Bible closer, notice how long scripture was written by revelation from the Lord, notice how long Prophets were called. Since the beginning of time. So if God is perfect and unchanging, and has a plan, to insist that such does not happen even today is to challenge God's divine works. Where have any of us said, that the Bible is "devil tainted"? We believe in not only the Bible, but also the BOM/D&C/PoGP to be FURTHER revelation and testament of Jesus Christ. We are not "adding" to the Bible, we are presenting FURTHER scripture, it is a seperate book. Just as D&C is seperate from the BOM. You like to put words in people's mouths it's very unerving. I appreciate your passion for this discussion, but please do not imply on your petty reasoning.

Why does your church say the bible is correct only as interpreted correctly?

Why does your church believe the ever changing BOM is more accurate?

Why did Joseph Smith re interpreted words of the bible and then print his own?

 

[Rescued One]

We do not believe the Bible to be tainted. Examine the Bible closer, notice how long scripture was written by revelation from the Lord, notice how long Prophets were called. Since the beginning of time. So if God is perfect and unchanging, and has a plan, to insist that such does not happen even today is to challenge God's divine works. Where have any of us said, that the Bible is "devil tainted"? We believe in not only the Bible, but also the BOM/D&C/PoGP to be FURTHER revelation and testament of Jesus Christ. We are not "adding" to the Bible, we are presenting FURTHER scripture, it is a seperate book. Just as D&C is seperate from the BOM. You like to put words in people's mouths it's very unerving. I appreciate your passion for this discussion, but please do not imply on your petty reasoning.

When did LDS start believing that the Bible is trustworthy and that we can get closer to heaven by its concepts than any other book?

When did you start believing it was translated correctly? If it was translated correctly, it is the pure word of God. If not, it has been tainted by the devil. Please don't speak out of both sides of your mouth.

The Bible tells us how to have eternal life. If you add to that, you missed the whole purpose of God's plan which is clearly spelled out in the word of God. God's plan is to bring sinners to faith in Christ.

 

[elderbell]

You do realize that the Bible was not written at once, and that it took a process of revelation and prophecy from many prophets. So what you are saying is that after the Bible was effectively "complete" we need no more revelation or prophecy concerning these works? That would entail leaving scripture to man without guidance from God.

 

[gort]

rnmomof7 quote:

IF Joseph had indeed received it , he would have remembered it, and not changed stories as he so often did.

Hello,

Thanks for this posting. It's bugged me for some time that JS story of this has been changed, not remembered right, or whatever.

How in the heavens a person could change a story such as this (if true) would be way beyond all reasoning. Way beyond. Incomprehensible. A happening such as this would be FOREVER remembered most vividly.

But it could not be true at all. God says no man can see His Face and live.

And it's always easy to remember the truth, but so much harder to remember a lie.


<><

 

[elderbell]

Deu 18:22
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

I think we can measure the truth of your prophets by this standard .

2 NEPHI 28:27

Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have recieved, and we need no more!

2ND NEPHI 29:

3 And because my words shall hiss forth-many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible and there cannot be any more Bible.

6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because I have spoken one word ye suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

11 For I command all men both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

14 and it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the land of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

 

[feo]

18: I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

19: And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophesy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book

You Have no Right to Add to His "Book of Prophesy"... its no Surprise that None of Your Prophesies ever Came True.

 

[elderbell]

oooooo! 3rd verse...came true. Word of the Jews and the Nephites come together...came true. Remember, in Jesus the Law of Moses(which the Jews follow) was fullfilled. Word of Jews....Bible, word of Nephites....BOM. Jews just never gave up the Law of Moses for the Higher Law and they rejected their Savior. Sorry, that standard by which we are held is also being fullfilled. Your words not mine.

 

[Rescued One]

You do realize that the Bible was not written at once, and that it took a process of revelation and prophecy from many prophets. So what you are saying is that after the Bible was effectively "complete" we need no more revelation or prophecy concerning these works? That would entail leaving scripture to man without guidance from God.

I'm not sure who you addressed this post to. If it's to me, I will tell you that the Bible tells us how to have eternal life. It tells us what God's work is. It's about faith, not works. The Bible is complete in that it tells us what God wants us to know. Jesus wasn't lying when He said that He wouldn't leave us comfortless, but would send the Holy Spirit to teach us all truth. If we already have the opportunity for all truth, we don't need LDS prophets.

These are things the Bible doesn't teach:

1. That Jews came to the Western hemisphere.
2. That the church would become completely apostate.
3. That we would need to do certain works in order to gain exaltation.
4. That our goal is to become gods and goddesses.
5. That we need to perform secret ordinances similar to the freemasons.

This is what the Bible teaches:

1. That every single human needs a Savior.
2. That Jesus Christ is the only Savior and the only way to be redeeemed.
3. That the Holy Spirit will comfort and lead us into all truth.*
4. That our works will never save us because we are all failures using that method of salvation.

*That would NOT entail leaving scripture to man without guidance from God; the Holy Spirit is God.

John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[MagusAlbertus]

1. That Jews came to the Western hemisphere.
2. That the church would become completely apostate.
3. That we would need to do certain works in order to gain exaltation.
4. That our goal is to become gods and goddesses.
5. That we need to perform secret ordinances similar to the freemasons.

This is what the Bible teaches:

1. That every single human needs a Savior.
2. That Jesus Christ is the only Savior and the only way to be redeeemed.
3. That the Holy Spirit will comfort and lead us into all truth.*
4. That our works will never save us because we are all failures using that method of salvation.

*That would NOT entail leaving scripture to man without guidance from God; the Holy Spirit is God

i'm sorry, but if the bible lacks the information here that we need with further 'explanation' from 'a fuller understanding' then their is no other conclusion to come to than the bible IS lacking, and that it HAS had the hand of error/sin/the enemy in it.

how can you conclude otherwise?

 

[twhite982]

This is what the Bible teaches:

1. That every single human needs a Savior.
2. That Jesus Christ is the only Savior and the only way to be redeeemed.
3. That the Holy Spirit will comfort and lead us into all truth.*
4. That our works will never save us because we are all failures using that method of salvation.

*That would NOT entail leaving scripture to man without guidance from God; the Holy Spirit is God.

What a coincedence these are ALL in LDS scripture too.

We must be doing something right by your own standard.


Tom

 

[MagusAlbertus]

What a coincedence these are ALL in LDS scripture too.

We must be doing something right by your own standard.


Tom

Yea, you guys DO say things often then immediately contradict them.


If you’re going to tell a lie it's best to put the counter-point in your argument then lie anyway, call the difference of 'opinion' faith.



The enemy is trixy and false!

 

[twhite982]

Yea, you guys DO say things often then immediately contradict them.


If you’re going to tell a lie it's best to put the counter-point in your argument then lie anyway, call the difference of 'opinion' faith.



The enemy is trixy and false!

Are you unwilling to acknowledge those things are clearly taught in LDS scripture?

Tom

 

[MagusAlbertus]

Are you unwilling to acknowledge those things are clearly taught in LDS scripture?

sure, the book of Mormon tells you to do all sorts of things that the church's dogma immediately contradicts.



Just call it faith and admit that you think God left out some key details in the bible for the ‘plan of salvation’ purpose of bringing some polygamists in the middle of the US to pseudo-godhood.



Hey, that’s a LOT of faith and I sure don’t want to speak out against your foundation! Read my sig!

 

[twhite982]

sure, the book of Mormon tells you to do all sorts of things...

Well at least you can see those attributes of God in the BofM.

Don't worry no one will ask you to take the discussions just because you saw those things in the BofM.

Tom

 

[MagusAlbertus]

Don't worry no one will ask you to take the discussions just because you saw those things in the BofM

I’ve listened to the discussions, but the fact is the poor lady holding the books up didn't understand that by the grace of Jesus all our sins are washed away;



if we try to 'work' our way out of our sin we'll never be saved from them.

 

[rnmomof7]

Are you unwilling to acknowledge those things are clearly taught in LDS scripture?

Tom

Note your scripture was dictated in King James English , from an unknown Egyptian plate, interpreted by peep stones.

Off hand I would suggest that some of the stuff in your "scriptures" was taken from the "corrupt" Bible and then mix in a cup of science fiction and you have a scripture that is so perfect that it keeps being corrected.

I have to agree with the kid from South Park when he asked the Mormons "You guys believe that ?"

 

[MagusAlbertus]

dum dum dum dum dumb

 

[fatboys]

I think we agree. Does "discourage" = "encouraged not"?


Perhaps. But why does your church discourage one of the most profound symbols supported by biblical scripture?

FB: The Cross to me is a mode of death. It holds no power to thwart the power of Satan, nor is it a symbol of power. It is an object. The symbolism of the cross has more meaning. But I don't have to wear a cross to remind me of the symbolism that the cross has for me.

What?!?! Why wouldn't you want to see an official announcement from your First Presidency? It was all about determining temple worthiness. Now, what your prophet determines to be appropriate intimate behavior between a man and wife, and their worthiness to god has to do with one another makes no sense to me. Anyway, if you don't want to see it, don't click here:

FB: Why would this be important to anyone? I remember when it came out and being married just a few years. People then as you do now have joked about it, scoffed at it, etc. I have been interviewed for a temple Recommend for almost thirty years. Never been asked some of those questions. I think its intent was for those who seem to be addicted to perverse intimate sex. The last statement in the paragraph is important, and is what bishops stake presidents usually suggest. If either find something that is not acceptable, then one should respect each others feelings.



Come on Twhite, tell me what you think demonstrates "worldly"; Building a 100 million conference center, buying up Crossroads Mall and half of downtown commercial real estate, establishing a worldwide satellite church TV broadcast station, OR, a woman deciding two wear two posts instead of one in her ear. I mean really, lets be serious here! It's ALL about control.


Let's just hope Paul is not judged by the length of his hair or the robe he wears![/QUOTE]