• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Met with the Missionaries?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Epiphany

Multiple of the Way
Jan 25, 2004
221
16
63
Sol III, Northern Hemisphere
Visit site
✟436.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Ammon said:
Tom,

I think she meant the preexistence in general, not the particular part which you cite as being without scriptural support. ;)

Ammon
To Life Immortal

Ja, I meant pre-existence in general. I believe life begins at conception. Since I have become a Christian, I don't believe I lived before I was conceived/born. As an Asatruar/Pagan, I believed in reincarnation. I don't think Mormons believe in reincarnation.


LDS believe that in the pre-existance God spiritually begat us as spirits, Jesus being the first. Starting with Adam who God physically formed out of the earth He breathed into Adam his (Adam's) spirit where Adam became a living soul, bith body and spirit combined.
Tom

Ok, I believe that Lord Jesus was not created. Lord Jesus is the second person of the Holy Trinity. Lord Jesus always existed.

Ammon said:
"And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them." Moses 7:22

I am not familiar with this. What is Book of Moses? I read NIV Bible. I have not seen this within Bible. I stand by my original post; race is a human concept, not God's. We are all one species.

Peace and Long Life
~*~ Epiphany ~*~
 
Upvote 0

AMMON

LATTER-DAY SAINT
Jan 30, 2004
1,882
32
54
Sacramento, California
Visit site
✟2,223.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Epiphany said:

What is Book of Moses? I read NIV Bible. I have not seen this within Bible.


Peace and Long Life
~*~ Epiphany ~*~

One of the many books that should have been in the Bible, but were either left out or unavailable (i.e., lost) to the Catholic Church when it compiled the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

AMMON

LATTER-DAY SAINT
Jan 30, 2004
1,882
32
54
Sacramento, California
Visit site
✟2,223.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
skylark1 said:
Ammon,

Why would black skin be considered a mark of protection?

Because people hated Cain. The skin, as noted in my quotes, was to (1) tell people to leave Cain alone, and (2) tell people to not intermingle with his seed. This is the group of people, in my opinion and from I understand of the doctrine, who made choices in the premortal life that caused them to be denied certain blessings in this life.
 
Upvote 0

happyinhisgrace

Blessed Trinity
Jan 2, 2004
3,992
56
52
✟26,996.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
To Life Immortal

Ja, I meant pre-existence in general. I believe life begins at conception. Since I have become a Christian, I don't believe I lived before I was conceived/born. As an Asatruar/Pagan, I believed in reincarnation. I don't think Mormons believe in reincarnation.


LDS do not believe in reincartion but they do believe that all mankind lived as "pre-mortal" spirit children of God (Elohim) before they came to earth to "gain a body and be tested".


Ok, I believe that Lord Jesus was not created. Lord Jesus is the second person of the Holy Trinity. Lord Jesus always existed.

LDS belief is that Jesus is the litteral spirit child of God the father who they say is name "Elohim" and that Jesus is named "Jehovah". They believe that Jesus was a spirit child in the "pre-existance" as was everyone else who has ever lived or will live on earth and that he was "chosen" to come to earth as the "atonement" for mankind so that all man may have eternal ressurection and live in one of the lds "degrees of glory" when they die. The believe that Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan.



I am not familiar with this. What is Book of Moses? I read NIV Bible. I have not seen this within Bible. I stand by my original post; race is a human concept, not God's. We are all one species.

The Boof Of Moses is an LDS book. You will not find it in the Bible.

Grace
Peace and Long Life
~*~ Epiphany
 
Upvote 0

baker

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2003
574
19
68
Visit site
✟23,319.00
Faith
Christian
Ammon said:
The black skin reference is from the above scripture
Where in the scripture does it say "BLACK SKIN"?


and President Joseph F. Smith, who was a Prophet of the Church many years ago.
So how did prophets Smith, Young, Taylor, and Woodruff, all who preceeded Joseph F. Smith, know it meant "BLACK SKIN"?


We do not know who that last soul was; but whoever it was died about the time that President Spencer W. Kimball, the prophet in 1978, received the revelation.
How do you know this? Is something you were told or is it supported by any teachings, statements or teachings from your prophets. I am looking for a source.
 
Upvote 0

rnmomof7

Legend
Feb 9, 2002
14,503
735
Western NY
✟94,487.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
Ammon said:
I am a financial clerk for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. There is more oversight of finances in the Church than in my law firm. They are highly scrutinzed. And the Prophet is not "paid handsomely." :rolleyes:

The books may be well kept, but they are also well hidden . Members do not have yearly access to them as do the Christians with the "evil" paid clergy


In the Wall Street Journal, Nov.*9, 1983, the salary given to a Seventy (second tier of LDS General Authorities, lower than an Apostle) was reported to be $40,000. With inflation this salary would be much higher today. ($100,000 + ?)
If housing is factored in (as in the case of the president of the church) the salary would be quite substantial.
When George P. Lee, former Seventy, was terminated in 1989, the LDS Church immediately confiscated his church credit card (Salt Lake Tribune, Sept.*10, 1989). We are left to wonder about what other benefits go with "full-time Church service."


*** The president is supplied with a home. ( the Salt Lake Tribune, Aug.*27, 1994,) the president of the LDS Church lives in a "downtown condominium, the official residence of church presidents."
In the Salt Lake Tribune, Dec.*8, 1988, we read "The $1.2 million condominium at 40*N. State that is home to the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will be exempt from property taxes, Salt Lake County commissioners ruled Tuesday."

Today we can assume that modest Pastors dwelling is probably near or above $5,000,000 to $7,000.000 in value . This is fully paid housing for the prophet.
No Gas , no water , no electricity , no phone bills (hard or cell) , no furniture bills , as it is furnished by the church ....no expensive for the paid staff etc.
Move out of the condo and see a fully church supported transportation fee. The prophet gets to travel in stye FREE.
All travel expenses are paid. No gas or car maintenance or chauffeur expenses)
Things like the clothing are business expenses and covered on his church credit card.

So If the prophet is paid in cash more than the lower help we can assume that he gets in the neighborhood of $ 200,000 to $300,000.


Not a bad "pay package"

In the Encyclopedia of Mormonism we read:

*** "The calling [to be a Mission President] is not a regular remunerative position,...The family involved gives of its time and energies without salary, though there is a modest allowance for living expenses." Encyclopedia of Mormonism

*** Again we are left to wonder at the Mormon distinction between "living expenses" and "salary."

There is no accounting to the membership of church funds. They are never informed as to the amount of the "modest living allowance" given to their top leaders.

In the Wall Street Journal, Nov.*9, 1983, the salary given to a Seventy (second tier of LDS General Authorities, lower than an Apostle) was reported to be $40,000. With inflation this salary would be much higher today. ($100,000 + ?)
If housing is factored in (as in the case of the president of the church) the salary would be quite substantial.
When George P. Lee, former Seventy, was terminated in 1989, the LDS Church immediately confiscated his church credit card (Salt Lake Tribune, Sept.*10, 1989). We are left to wonder about what other benefits go with "full-time Church service."


All of this while the men leading the church on the local level get nothing , so they must work to support themselves..tithe 10% on top of that ,

I just wondered if the Prophet tithes out of the ENTIRE pay package or just the cash?

Meanwhile back at the Christian church with the evil paid pastors
in a recent study conducted by The National Association of Church Business Administration points out that the average full-time American pastor (pastors without an outside job) has at least four years of college or university education, works approximately 60 hours per week in ministerial and pastoral service, pastors a church with approximately 123 regular attendees, ( the norm) and earns an average annual income of $32,700. This includes salaries, clergy housing allowance, medical insurance benefits (if provided), and retirement plan contributions (if provided).


Have you ever seen the books?
 
Upvote 0

rnmomof7

Legend
Feb 9, 2002
14,503
735
Western NY
✟94,487.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
Ammon said:
Because people hated Cain. The skin, as noted in my quotes, was to (1) tell people to leave Cain alone, and (2) tell people to not intermingle with his seed. This is the group of people, in my opinion and from I understand of the doctrine, who made choices in the premortal life that caused them to be denied certain blessings in this life.

(In the War in the heavens)

. According to LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie, some of those who fought on God's side "were more valiant than others…Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin...The present status of the negro rests purely and simply on the foundation of pre-existence" (Mormon Doctrine, p.527, 1966 ed.).

According to Brigham Young, Joseph Smith who classified these people as The Seed of Cain. Young said that "Joseph Smith had declared that the Negroes were not neutral in heaven, for all the spirits took sides, but 'the posterity of Cain are black because he (Cain) committed murder. He killed Abel and God set a mark upon his posterity'" (The Improvement Era, Joseph Fielding Smith, p.105).


President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, "It was well understood by the early elders of the Church that the mark which was placed on Cain and which his posterity inherited was the black skin. The Book of Moses informs us that Cain and his descendants were black" (The Way to Perfection, p.107).

Smith also stated that "there is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less" (Doctrines of Salvation 1:61).

For these reasons, Bruce McConkie would write, "The negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom…" (Mormon Doctrine, p.527, 1966 ed.).

Joseph Fielding Smith stated, "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race" (The Way to Perfection, p.101)


You know the the LDS used the term" White and delightsome" Ammon
 
Upvote 0

rnmomof7

Legend
Feb 9, 2002
14,503
735
Western NY
✟94,487.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
Ammon said:
One of the many books that should have been in the Bible, but were either left out or unavailable (i.e., lost) to the Catholic Church when it compiled the Bible.


That is an unbelievable statement seeing the Book of Moses was not written at the time that the Bible was assembled. Even if it had been , it would have been dismissed as non inspired as were many of the other because of an obvious uninspired content.
 
Upvote 0

twhite982

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2003
1,708
14
46
✟24,440.00
Faith
Other Religion
Epiphany said:
To Life Immortal





Ok, I believe that Lord Jesus was not created. Lord Jesus is the second person of the Holy Trinity. Lord Jesus always existed.
LDS also believe that Jesus is eternal.

I said Jesus was the first spiritually begotten of God.

LDS believe that intelligences are eternal as well and this would mean Jesus is eternal. Jesus was the greatest of them ALL.

Additionally we have numerous scripture that state Jesus is the eternal God, always was, is, and will be.

I can't go too much further into detail since we don't have much beyond that.


Tom
 
Upvote 0

twhite982

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2003
1,708
14
46
✟24,440.00
Faith
Other Religion
rnmomof7 said:


So If the prophet is paid in cash more than the lower help we can assume that he gets in the neighborhood of $ 200,000 to $300,000.
Lets just assume your "numbers" are correct.

Do you have any idea of what a CEO of an 11 million member orginization makes?


What about other church "top level" leaders?


Why not give a fair analysis?

Tom
 
Upvote 0

happyinhisgrace

Blessed Trinity
Jan 2, 2004
3,992
56
52
✟26,996.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
twhite982 said:
Lets just assume your "numbers" are correct.

Do you have any idea of what a CEO of an 11 million member orginization makes?


What about other church "top level" leaders?


Why not give a fair analysis?

Tom
Finally an LDS member on this forum who will compare the LDS church to a business orginization and it's leader to a "CEO".....ya gotta love politics.

Tom, what "top level" leaders of other churches are you referring to? Top level leader in Christian churches are the pastors and most pastors have to hold down a second "job" in addition to their ministerial position just to make ends meet. So, most pastors of local churches would hardly be what you would call "well-off".

Grace
 
Upvote 0

twhite982

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2003
1,708
14
46
✟24,440.00
Faith
Other Religion
happyinhisgrace said:
Finally an LDS member on this forum who will compare the LDS church to a business orginization and it's leader to a "CEO".....ya gotta love politics.
Don't get too excited I was speaking rnmomof7's language. ^_^

Tom, what "top level" leaders of other churches are you referring to? Top level leader in Christian churches are the pastors and most pastors have to hold down a second "job" in addition to their ministerial position just to make ends meet. So, most pastors of local churches would hardly be what you would call "well-off".

Grace
You're comparing apples with oranges here Grace.

A bishop is the equivalent of a pastor.

I don't know the $$$ amounts of "top level" leaders of lets say the baptist organization. (I'm not trying to single anyone out here) and that is why I asked for a better comparision.

Tom
 
Upvote 0

skylark1

In awesome wonder
Nov 20, 2003
12,545
251
Visit site
✟14,186.00
Faith
Christian
Ammon or anyone LDS,

The Bible does not mention "black skin" as a mark on Cain. The LDS scripture that was provided does not say "black skin." How do you know that seed being black means "black skin?"
"And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them." Moses 7:22


We do not know who that last soul was; but whoever it was died about the time that President Spencer W. Kimball, the prophet in 1978, received the revelation.


I am also curious how you know this. Could you please provide a source? Is this an official LDS teaching or is it just your opinion?
 
Upvote 0

happyinhisgrace

Blessed Trinity
Jan 2, 2004
3,992
56
52
✟26,996.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
twhite982 said:
Don't get too excited I was speaking rnmomof7's language. ^_^

You're comparing apples with oranges here Grace.

A bishop is the equivalent of a pastor.

I don't know the $$$ amounts of "top level" leaders of lets say the baptist organization. (I'm not trying to single anyone out here) and that is why I asked for a better comparision.

Tom
Most churches are local and do not have a "CEO" like the LDS church does, so their top leaders ARE the pastors.

Grace
 
Upvote 0

Epiphany

Multiple of the Way
Jan 25, 2004
221
16
63
Sol III, Northern Hemisphere
Visit site
✟436.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
rnmomof7 said:
(In the War in the heavens)

. According to LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie, some of those who fought on God's side "were more valiant than others…Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin...The present status of the negro rests purely and simply on the foundation of pre-existence" (Mormon Doctrine, p.527, 1966 ed.).

According to Brigham Young, Joseph Smith who classified these people as The Seed of Cain. Young said that "Joseph Smith had declared that the Negroes were not neutral in heaven, for all the spirits took sides, but 'the posterity of Cain are black because he (Cain) committed murder. He killed Abel and God set a mark upon his posterity'" (The Improvement Era, Joseph Fielding Smith, p.105).


President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, "It was well understood by the early elders of the Church that the mark which was placed on Cain and which his posterity inherited was the black skin. The Book of Moses informs us that Cain and his descendants were black" (The Way to Perfection, p.107).

Smith also stated that "there is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less" (Doctrines of Salvation 1:61).

For these reasons, Bruce McConkie would write, "The negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom…" (Mormon Doctrine, p.527, 1966 ed.).

Joseph Fielding Smith stated, "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race" (The Way to Perfection, p.101)


You know the the LDS used the term" White and delightsome" Ammon

To Life Immortal

The above quote is terrible. I sincerely hope that Mormons do not believe this today in 2004. It sounds like 'Christian' Identity racialist religion from NorthWest America.

Even if what Moses book says is true, were not all of Cain's descendants killed in Great Flood? Only 8 people were left to populate Earth again. Who is the 'father' of the Black races then?

I thank God that I follow Lord Jesus. I do not know where in bible it says, but I remember hearing that in Christ, there is no Jew nor Greek nor male nor female nor bond nor free. All are equal in Lord Jesus. There is no racialism nor apartheid with Lord Jesus.

Peace and Long Life
~*~ Epiphany ~*~
 
Upvote 0

twhite982

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2003
1,708
14
46
✟24,440.00
Faith
Other Religion
happyinhisgrace said:
Most churches are local and do not have a "CEO" like the LDS church does, so their top leaders ARE the pastors.

Grace
But as I was trying to ask doesn't the baptist church have a leader (s) that direct the individual churches?

And other denominations as well?

Somebody has to be "running the show". ;)

Tom
 
Upvote 0

rnmomof7

Legend
Feb 9, 2002
14,503
735
Western NY
✟94,487.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
twhite982 said:
Lets just assume your "numbers" are correct.

Do you have any idea of what a CEO of an 11 million member orginization makes?


What about other church "top level" leaders?


Why not give a fair analysis?

Tom

Irrelevant ,

He is supposed to be a spiritual leader not a CEO


The fact is you guys have no clue what he makes..(I would love to see his corporate earning repost wouldn't you)

Ammon said he was not well paid ...that was the response.

It is the Mormons are smug and look down at paid clergy .

And here is the truth.. the money you give falls into a black hole. He could be getting 2 million a year as far as you know.

The man that shepherds your flock is not worth a red cent.But the connected that get the promotions are ..

My point was at the beginning that your church is wealthy even if your stake is hurting

The tithe goes for enriching the church not for its servants ....and you have no clue where or how it is spent
 
Upvote 0

happyinhisgrace

Blessed Trinity
Jan 2, 2004
3,992
56
52
✟26,996.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
twhite982 said:
But as I was trying to ask doesn't the baptist church have a leader (s) that direct the individual churches?

And other denominations as well?

Somebody has to be "running the show". ;)

Tom
Very few churches have a "head-quarters" that over-sees the smaller churches. Most are local churches that run themselves.

Many Baptist churches fit into this catagory also. Most Christian churches are independant churches.

Grace
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.