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Messianics who preach circumcision

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by 31gH9N.9., May 25, 2018.

  1. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    It may have been somone else and you are just asking identical questions :)

    Acts 7:4 & 5 - No problem with Hebrews. But you run into problems. Example: Gen 11:26 has Terach being 70 when Abraham was born. Gen 12:4 says Abraham was 75 when he left Charan, and so Terach must have been 145. Gen 11:32 tells us that Terach died at 205, 60 years later.

    It is not a world stopping problem, but it throws some confusion on Stephen's comments at this point, which are understandable given what was happening to him. We all make genuine mistakes at times! :)
     
  2. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    It doesn't, and I don't think I said it did. :)

    The comments in Hebrews simply confirm what we know - that they held tight to what G_d had said, even though they did not see it at the time - as we hold on to Yeshua returning.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
  3. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    I do not disagree with you. Christ was actually from Heaven.
     
  4. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    God tests Abrahams faith......The one seed, not the many.
    Highlighted distinctions…..
    1.Swearing of an oath, God will not repent of it. distinction from bilateral agreements.
    2. Only son, as Christ sole heir as an only begotten son. distinct from firstborn...…..………..
    Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

    The promises established in the one seed (only begotten son of promise)

    17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

    18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
    1. Sole heir
    ...…..……...
    Gen 25:5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
    2. No force of inheritance

    6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

    Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
     
  5. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    and? I don't see your problem / point here.
     
  6. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    I have heard of this before but I don't think from you, or even anyone here on this site. LOL but I could be wrong on that as well. However, evidently the Samaritan text does have the correct timeline. Since the current Hebrew is not from the original, it could have been a difference between the original and Masoretic text.
     
  7. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    And yet an amended covenant is extended to the non-Jewish Greek gentiles (Acts 15:20,29). Is it an amended covenant for just non-Jewish Greek gentiles at Antioch in that Peter admits their fathers weren't able to bear the yoke of 613 commandments (Acts 15:7-11)? James says, "If you break even one commandment your guilty of breaking them all" (James 2:10). Yeshua said, "Anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery" (Matthew 5:28).
    So, then instead of a New Covenant should we call it a Distinct Covenant in which non-Jewish Believers aren't required to be circumcised? The Torah (e.g. De 4:2) was written to God's chosen Hebrews NOT to uncircumcised pagan gentiles that worshiped man-made idols of wood and stone.
    How can it be a New Covenant unless you believe the previous covenant was annulled? If it was a New Covenant for both Jew and non-Jewish than why the need for Messianic Judaism congregations today? Perhaps, the Church has amended what Christianity refers to as a New Covenant as if it replaced an old covenant. The following are two examples of Christianity's amended covenant ...

    Randy777s amended version (he has removed the 4th commandment and divided the original 10th into two parts to still end up with 10 commandments)
    1. You shall have no other gods before me.
    2. You shall not make idols.
    3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
    4. Honor your father and your mother.
    5. You shall not murder.
    6. You shall not commit adultery.
    7. You shall not steal.
    8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
    9. You shall not covet.

    Added by the Apostles with approval from the Holy Spirit
    10. Abstain from sexual immorality​

    How do you justify Christianity's (RCC) most recent amended version of the Ten Commandments? The original 2nd Commandment has been removed with the original 10th Commandment divided into two parts (9&10) to come up with their amended Ten Commandments.

    Christianity's Catechism presentation of the Commandments for memorization are:
    1. I am the Lord your God: You shall not have strange Gods before me.
    2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
    3. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day (Sunday).
    4. Honor your father and mother.
    5. You shall not kill.
    6. You shall not commit adultery.
    7. You shall not steal.
    8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
    9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
    10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.​

    Has Christianity amended a New Covenant to the point that Jewish Believers in the 1960s and 70s came together to establish what became known as Messianic Judaism congregations that observe the 7th Day Sabbath.
     
  8. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    I lose track of who asks which questions, historically. Sometimes if feels like covering the same ground all over again, even if it is a different poster each time! :)
     
  9. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    The covenant is established here in Isaac.
    Ge 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

    Ge 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    God can repent (though not as men do. But swearing an oath....no way.
    Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
    Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
    Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
    Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
     
  10. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    Gen 26:5 is debated in Judaism - what charges, commandments, statutes and laws did he obey?
     
  11. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Yes and NO. You can't take the Jew out of Yeshua, nor can the Holy Spirit. If 9 out of 10 works for the spirit that leads you, then you are not fully His.
     
  12. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    This thread boils down to this: Is there a different covenant for Jewish believers than non-Jewish believers? If not than why have the Ten Commandments been amended by Christians (e.g. Randy777, the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant Church).

    ralliann has yet to answer my previous reply (283) to her post to me ... so i posted it again (328) to see if she agrees that Christianity has amended God's Ten Commandments. Amendments seemingly just for non-Jewish Believers. For example circumcision on the 8th day isn't a commandment for non-Jewish Believers, nor is observing the 7th Day Sabbath as a Day of Rest being just two examples.

    It it is truly a "New Covenant" as ralliann believes then wouldn't it apply to both Jewish and non-Jewish Believer equally? So, who's more at fault here in following a "New Covenant" that Paul writes about in his several letters ... Messianic Judaism or Christianity or both having equally stumbled in their own man-made religious traditions.​
     
  13. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    First of all the covenant made with Abraham does not need amendment.
    Jew and gentile alike are spoken of there. The sinai covenant does not apply to uncircumcision. Only those which are in the land.
    I believe this is speaking concerning the collective nature of sin by Moses law. An example..
    Joshua warning the 2-1/2 tribes that built an alter on the other side of the Jordon...…

    Jos 22:18 But that ye must turn away this day from following the LORD? and it will be, seeing ye rebel to day against the LORD, that to morrow he will be wroth with the whole congregation of Israel.
    Jos 22:20 Did not Achan the son of Zerah commit a trespass in the accursed thing, and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel? and that man perished not alone in his iniquity.

    I think the day of atonement was for this purpose? It was atonement on a national (collective) scale.
    Non Jews are simply the nations promised Abraham. We call it new because it has made the first old and obsolete (obsolete means no longer useful for the task it was designed).
    But the circumcision among Jew's was to testify that the promises made with Abraham still present a promise to Jew's. The promises are fulfilled in Christ not abolished.
    The Torah (e.g. De 4:2) was written to God's chosen Hebrews NOT to uncircumcised pagan gentiles that worshiped man-made idols of wood and stone.

    Because The Sinai covenant never disannulled the promises. Therefore it does not need to disannulled.


     
  14. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    You still haven't answered if the amendments to the Ten Commandments by Christianity are valid.

    Randy777s amended version (he has removed the 4th commandment and divided the original 10th into two parts to still end up with 10 commandments)
    1. You shall have no other gods before me.
    2. You shall not make idols.
    3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
    4. Honor your father and your mother.
    5. You shall not murder.
    6. You shall not commit adultery.
    7. You shall not steal.
    8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
    9. You shall not covet.

    Added by the Apostles with approval from the Holy Spirit
    10. Abstain from sexual immorality

    How do you justify Christianity's (RCC) most recent amended version of the Ten Commandments? The original 2nd Commandment has been removed with the original 10th Commandment divided into two parts (9&10) to come up with their amended Ten Commandments.

    Christianity's Catechism presentation of the Commandments for memorization are:
    1. I am the Lord your God: You shall not have strange Gods before me.
    2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
    3. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day (Sunday).
    4. Honor your father and mother.
    5. You shall not kill.
    6. You shall not commit adultery.
    7. You shall not steal.
    8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
    9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
    10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.
     
  15. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Concerning the original Hebrew text.....It just occurred to me the lxx is based on the original isn't it? Or at least written during the time of the original isn't it? If so, I wonder if it agrees with the Masoretic or the Samaritan. If not, then same conundrum.
    Well the law he obeyed IMO is this (Noah obeyed this law as well)
    Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    So all the others mishpat, etc were all works Abe did by faith. Just like Noah. Some were never repeated either, nor given other men to perform.
    Build an ark, Sacrifice his son.
     
  16. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    I use the JPS 1999 Translation (The Jewish Study Bible) which 'takes seriously the traditional Hebrew - Masoretic - text of the Bible, and the Targums. The Septuagint is the oldest version.
     
  17. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    It is an interesting phrase that is used. In the same way, how did Noah know what 'clean' animals were, when he put them in the Ark after all the others? He appears not have had any lessons on the matter - one might be forgiven for thinking that if two of every living thing was in the Ark, then the required 'clean' animals were there in any case, so he just needed to top up the number to 7. But he must have wondered what 'clean' meant, and why 7 of those, and not any of the others. :)
     
  18. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Are you starting down another rabbit trail?

    What does this have to do with this thread's Title when Noah wasn't living under the Law ...

    Messianics who preach circumcision
     
  19. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    If you don't agree with this forum's SOP based on your beliefs then you may decide you don't agree with this forum's Messianic Judaism's SOP.

    For example you may possibly believe the amendments Christianity has made to the Ten Commandments are justified. Or on the other hand you may agree that Christianity's amendments to the Ten Commandments aren't justified and agree with this MJ forum's SOP. Be careful that you aren't drawn into a debate with a member of this MJ forum if you believe Christianity's amendments to the Ten Commandments are justified.
     
  20. tampasteve

    tampasteve Lutheran Messianic Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Agree, I should have stopped at "salvation' as I believe the whole purpose of the Law, is to help us draw near to God, to sanctify us for his presence. Thanks for checking :)
     
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