Messianics who preach circumcision

[Open Heart]

Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Nothing in that passage about a heavenly Jerusalem.

 

[ralliann]

Nothing in that passage about a heavenly Jerusalem.

Really? How is Abraham, Isaac, And Jacob supposed to inherit it after they were dead? Or do you suppose they were not strangers and sojourners in the land?
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Their inheritance was in the next world, the next life. The resurrection is our hope of inheritance in the next world, the next life
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Gen 15, Abe is told he will die, but gives him heirs to the earthly inheritance in the 4th generation of his seed.
Acts 7:2came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

 

[Open Heart]

Really? How is Abraham, Isaac, And Jacob supposed to inherit it after they were dead? Or do you suppose they were not strangers and sojourners in the land?
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Their inheritance was in the next world, the next life. The resurrection is our hope of inheritance in the next world, the next life
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Gen 15, Abe is told he will die, but gives him heirs to the earthly inheritance in the 4th generation of his seed.
Acts 7:2came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

God gave it to Abraham, as in gave it to his family, his descendants. You have to reconcile Genesis with Acts. On one hand, Genesis definitely states that God gave the Land to Abraham, present tense, no waiting for some future heavenly Jerusalem. Yet Abraham did not establish a Kingdom there. It was up to his descendants to do that.

See Genesis 15

7 He also said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it.”

 

[chunkofcoal]

Isn't the land going to be Abraham's after the resurrection?

 

[chunkofcoal]

In regards to the Acts 15 argument - would it change your opinion regarding gentiles being circumcised if, in the response James gave, the "tabernacle of David" was interpreted as "the Kingdom of the House of David"? (As it sometimes is)

 

[BukiRob]

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I never said they were Pharisees. What i said is that they were a sect of Jewish men who thought they were Believers (#371) that came from Judea to Antioch. We don't know what sect (certain men), and it's very possible that Peter or Paul didn't know what sect (certain men) other than they were Judaizers. That is not to eliminate certain Pharisee believers as being these (certain men). However, i didn't imply that they were attendees at the Council of Jerusalem. It's my understanding only the Apostles made up the Council of Jerusalem.

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Don't disagree. However, there are so-called sects today like JWs and LDS that say they are Christian Believers even though we would agree that they don't believe that Yeshua is the physical manifestation of Incarnate God. Do you conclude that a Messianic Jew that doesn't believe Yeshua is the physical manifestation of Adonai therefore isn't a Believer? It's likely that both Paul and Peter didn't consider these Judaizers to be Believers, even if they thought Yeshua was Israel's Messiah.

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Where did you get the idea these "certain men" were participants at the Jerusalem Council?

Nope you are still wrong

Verse 5 5But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

In verse 1 the Men who came down from Judea are not identified as Pharisee's nor are they identified as believers.

I never said that the believing Pharisee's were part of the council. That said, they are Pharisees and Yeshua SPECIFICALLY directed those listening AND THE APOSTLES 1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2“ The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do.

As such they CERTAINLY would have listened to the input the believing Pharisee's would have.