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Messianics who preach circumcision

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by 31gH9N.9., May 25, 2018.

  1. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Do you believe it is that the purpose of God's law is for law and order?
     
  2. tampasteve

    tampasteve Lutheran Messianic Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Could you clarify what you mean by "God's law"?
     
  3. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Being that you mentioned it first (Law) assume it is the same "Law" referred to by Paul in the following verse ...

    The one who is physically uncircumcised yet keeps the Law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker
    (Romans 2:27).​

    Vis doesn't capitalize God's "law" but me thinks you both are referring to the same "Law" that Paul refers to in the above verse. Vis, do you think its the same Law referred to by Paul when he says, "yet keeps the Law" ? Note: A Jewish women is physically uncircumcised.
     
  4. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Deuteronomy 7:12
    If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then Yahwah your God will keep his covenant and will love you, as he swore to your ancestors.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    KJ21
    “Therefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments and keep and do them, that the Lord thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which He swore unto thy fathers.
     
  5. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Are you implying there's a difference between "God's law" and "God's Law" ? This may help Vis to better know how to answer your question to her.
     
  6. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    I don't see the Sinai covenant as a separate covenant, but as an addendum to the Abrahamic covenant.

    Abraham: I unconditionally give the promised land to your descendants through Isaac. This is an everlasting covenant -- it cannot be broken.

    Moses: AND if you keep my commandments, I'll actually let you live there and bless you. Now if you break my commandments I'll punish you and kick you out of the land, but the land will still be yours.
     
  7. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    The Original Covenant is worthless (obsolete) when it comes to eternal salvation -- you cannot get to heaven by obeying the law (not that you ever could, but people had begun to think so). The Original Covenant is also impermanent and "passing away." It will only last til the end of the world, whereas the New Covenant will last into eternity.
     
  8. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    Galatians says as much. Putting the Abrahamic and Old Covenants, Paul says:

    Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
     
  9. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    I'd been looking forward to your response to Open Heart's question - I thought 'sanctification' would've been an interesting topic. Maybe start another thread? :)
     
  10. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    I think the statute laws are written on parchment. Laws referring to circumcision are found there. When I say God's Law, I am referring to the TEN written in stone and to be written in the hearts of man. The laws that are written by Moses, I refer to as Moses' law just to be clear. This is a definite case of the "weightier matter".
     
  11. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    go for it. I'll participate.
     
  12. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. I tend to refer to all the Torah as God's laws since God is the one who gave them to Moses. Calling them Moses' laws are fine too, since he was the intermediary.

    I tend to think that "Loving your neighbor as yourself" is more important than "Thou shalt not steal," even though it is through Moses, because it is the principle behind thou shalt not steal. Which is why Jesus said it is the second greatest commandment.
     
  13. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    The last 6 of the 10 are all about "loving your neighbor" and in those last 6 you will find "thou shalt not steal", so I could not pull them apart and say one is more important.
     
  14. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    You missed the point.
     
  15. Doctor.Sphinx

    Doctor.Sphinx Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't this depend on your point of view, and your definition of circumcision? For a Jewish woman is also not uncircumcised (neither question really makes sense applied to females). From this frame of view, a Jewish woman could be classified as circumcised. Jewish females were included in the covenant, and only Jewish males cut off if uncircumcised after the eighth day.
     
  16. Randy777

    Randy777 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was before Abraham was born.
    My outlook in regard to the law is in the context of what is sin that leads to death not for obtaining righteousness. That to me is not by the law as there are those who do so yet reject Jesus.
    And I stated like Paul I still see all the law as law. But not all law as binding.
    And in regard to the Sabbath absolutely no work or chores even cooking meals was not permitted. Meals had to be prepared in advance. I don't keep such a day and never have. Nor will I start doing so. Unlike the first believers I assume they had done so their whole lives. Its not accept Christ now start keeping the sabbath. I don't see the sabbath as binding for Christians. And certainly not a means of obtaining righteousness. If it were binding then anyone who doesn't continue to keep the sabbath would be one who continues to sin.
    However the do nots -theft, murder, adultery, false witness, sexual immorality and the do's -honoring your father and mother are more universal to mankind apart from Judaism.
    And since Christ Jesus is the only way to the Father that takes care of idol worship or worshipping false Gods. For in Christ one is not doing so and is loving God and in so is loved by God.

    God put Hs Spirit in us that we might not sin against Him. He writes His covenant on our hearts by that Spirit. A new creation is made with the believer.
     
  17. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    Quoting Acts 15 without understanding the context is error.

    Acts 15:1 makes clear that the entire debate is WHO CAN BE SAVED and NOT the ending of Torah which is what the gentile led church teaches.
     
  18. Randy777

    Randy777 Well-Known Member

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    Do to forum rules I am limited here. The original question was on circumcision and that was addressed in acts 15.
    Lets leave it at that for peace sake.
    Randy
     
  19. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    This is a quote from Jerimiah. The new covenant is the Torah written on the heart on in the mind...

    Far, FAR too many simply ignore the Master's words: DO NOT THINK THAT I HAVE COME TO ABOLISH TORAH!
     
  20. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    And again, IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND Acts 15 YOU WILL NOT UNDERSTAND the admonition of Circumcision!!!
     
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