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Messianics who preach circumcision

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by 31gH9N.9., May 25, 2018.

  1. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    Here you go again... interjecting your own belief instead of relying on the text to tell you what is going on.

    1) 0 evidence that the men from Judea are believers. This lends tremendous support for the CORRECT view that both they, AND the believing Jews viewed that ONLY a Jew could be saved, therefore, the gentile FIRST must convert to be saved.

    STOP trying to push your own interpretation when the text PLAINLY SPEAKS!

    You INSIST on trying to tie the observance of Torah when that is NEVER at any point brought up in the debate.

    Jews EXCLUSIVELY used the mosaic model of dispute resolution and Act 15 is showing you EXACTLY that!!!

    Jews ONLY dealt with 1 issue at a time and they DID NOT allow other arguments to be put forward until the original argument was decided on the witness of 2 or more persons.

    You see this AGAIN addressed in Acts 21 when James trying to stop the FALSE teaching that Paul was teaching against Torah, instructs Paul to take the vow of the Nazarene
     
  2. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Correct. They had a specific job that wasn't agrarian and the Torah provided for their welfare via the tithe. However, they were still to live in Eretz Yisrael.
     
  3. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Which Messianic Jews do you think?
    (this may be one of Steve's trick questions so i'll play along)​

    Acts 15:5
    But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
    You certainly don't agree that it was a sect of Jewish Christian Judaizers that were preaching circumcision as does this Christian commentary on Acts 15:1 ?
    By "Which Messianics" are you suggesting that Christian Judaizers are Messianics ?? ;)
     
  4. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Is that how the name Judaizer came into being? This then supports the view that the certain sect that came from Judea to Antioch were likely Jewish Messianic Believers and not Jewish Christians (Acts 15:1).
     
  5. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    I for one do not insist that Gentile believers be circumcised and come under the Mosaic law. It is obvious to me that the Council of Jerusalem ruled against this. But it is just as obvious that it never forbade it to Gentiles that wished it. Why shouldn't they be circumcised if they so wish? Why shouldn't they draw near to God through observing Torah if they are drawn? It is a mistake to deny them. Let them draw near!
     
  6. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is what a Judaizer was. One who believed a Gentile must become circumcized aka become a Jew and obligated to Mosaic law, in order to be saved. It's insulting -- there is nothing wrong with remaining a Gentile.

    In order to understand the Judaizing issue, we must first understand that circumcision is the act of conversion, which is not just religious conversion (your God will be my God) but also ethnic conversion (your people shall be my people). IOW to become circumcised was to become a Jew. That may not be true in our own day and age, but was very definitely true in the Bible times.

    Today things are different. Heck folks get circumcised just for hygienic reasons. So there are plenty of Messianic Gentiles who get circumcised and they are NOT trying to become Jews -- it's just not the same thing going on as back in the book of Acts.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  7. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Back then they believed Jews were the chosen people, and with that frame of mind, it was obvious to them, the gentiles must convert to being a Jew.
     
  8. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Right. Before the Council of Jerusalem, there were simply many believers who misunderstood. Even Peter misunderstood before the Lord sent him the dream. Now we know that there is a second chosen people, another priesthood, another Ekklesia "set apart," which is Jews and Gentiles equal before God, no longer "Jew or Greek, male or female, slave or free."
     
  9. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    I personally do not believe that they were believers at all. Scripture goes out of its way to identify those who were believers. Since they are not identified as such, it is reasonable to take the position that they were not.
     
  10. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    You are mixing groups.

    Vs 1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

    I see no reason to even remotely believe that the Pharisee's in vs 5 are these same men. I personally do not make that connection.

    Regardless though, Acts 15 is ENTIRELY about WHO can be saved.
     
  11. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    They were there at the Council of Jerusalem. Why would non-believers be participants at a major council?
     
  12. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    You are talking about two things: salvation and obedience.
    Salvation is a free gift. Obedience should be our response
    to salvation because we love God and want to please him.
    Not for any benefit it may give us, but for him only.

    Yet the first things many Christians are taught is that we are
    free to do what we want. Technically right, but selfish in the
    worst way, because it denies that we owe everything to God.
    I can't even imagine people treating their parents as badly as
    they treat God and what he wants. I think people have not
    remembered we are to fear God as the most powerful being
    and as our creator and our judge.
     
  13. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    I never said they were Pharisees. What i said is that they were a sect of Jewish men who thought they were Believers (#371) that came from Judea to Antioch. We don't know what sect (certain men), and it's very possible that Peter or Paul didn't know what sect (certain men) other than they were Judaizers. That is not to eliminate certain Pharisee believers as being these (certain men). However, i didn't imply that they were attendees at the Council of Jerusalem. It's my understanding only the Apostles made up the Council of Jerusalem.
    Don't disagree. However, there are so-called sects today like JWs and LDS that say they are Christian Believers even though we would agree that they don't believe that Yeshua is the physical manifestation of Incarnate God. Do you conclude that a Messianic Jew that doesn't believe Yeshua is the physical manifestation of Adonai therefore isn't a Believer? It's likely that both Paul and Peter didn't consider these Judaizers to be Believers, even if they thought Yeshua was Israel's Messiah.
    Where did you get the idea these "certain men" were participants at the Jerusalem Council?
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  14. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    But not fellow heirs with Israel. Their inheritance like Abraham and with Abraham is the heavenly Jerusalem.
     
  15. Elihoenai

    Elihoenai Who has ceased to eat Manna?

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    Gentiles must be Circumcised! Circumcision is an absolute requirement of the faith. The Pharisees and Scribes are Righteous!


    5:20 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

    20 `For I say to you, that if your righteousness may not abound above that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye may not enter to the reign of the heavens.

    Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:20 - Young's Literal Translation


    Matthew 5:20 King James Version (KJV)

    20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:20 - King James Version
     
  16. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    It was not a trick question.

    Are you referring to people on this forum, particular MJ congregations or organization, MJ leaders today or those in ancient times?

    I am not sure who it is that you are upset with?
     
  17. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    New thread on sanctification is started, Open Heart! Looking forward to responses. :)
     
  18. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    It identifies certain men twice. The first is the certain men which had come from Judea...
    Ac 7:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

    Then again here again there were certain men from among the sect of Pharisees.
    5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

    It seems whoever these certain men were, they had enough "clout" to influence as teachers among the brethren in the Church to cause a great dissention. Enough that the church felt the need to consult the apostles in Jerusalem. As is said here.....

    2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and about this question.

    These certain men obviously had great respect as teachers because..after the decision was made at the council they sent their decision to the churches by letter (decree) concerning this matter.
    Resulting actions of the council...……..
    20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
    22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
    23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
    certain men
    24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

    27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

    These certain men had come from the church at Jerusalem, and were accepted as teachers to the churches to a degree that letters had to be sent out to the Churches and a council had to be held over it. Hardly a situation caused by men hardly known to the churches. These had great enough influence to the churches that the apostles elders and whole church had to write letters from the Church at Jerusalem. The whole Church chimed in on this decision. Apostles, elders, and the whole Church IMO concerned all that were present there.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
  19. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    rallian, where in the Torah does it promise heavenly Jerusalem as part of the Original Covenant?
     
  20. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
    4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
    5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
    6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
    7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
    8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
     
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