Messianic Judaism and the Trinity

[Gxg (G²)]

Yeshua was 100% G-d and 100% Man. As a man he had to willingly align his will with the Fathers will....

Its not a perfect example but then, we are human and Adonai is the creator of the universe... this goes beyond our ability to grasp and fully understand

 

[rick357]

I guess I have always looked at it this way. I am Rob. I am one person. Yet to my wife I am a Husband, to my sons I am a father and to my Father I am a son...

I am not 3 different people I am one person yet I have 3 uniquely distinct and different roles that make me appear very, very different roles. In all 3 roles are completely different and not at all the same. I do not behave with my sons or my father relationally the same way I do as my wife. Nor do I relate the same way with my wife as I do my father. And my sons relate completely differently than either my wife or my father.

To share my understanding of this relationship The Father is life all that comes from him is life. His Spirit is literal breath. As his image the spirit of a man is that man. In the same way The Fathers spirit is him. Also like the widows oil no matter how much comes out it is not lessened.when his image speakes it is his will heart and mind in conjunction with his breath giving a form( sound waves). A thing to remember man is dust and ashes his words are not a pure reflextion of himself. The Father on the other hand only speaks truth and what he speaks is his express image. By this Word the creation was formed, Moses recieved the law, the prophets were instructed. At The Fathers appointed time that same word became flesh. As such he lived as flesh and submitted himself to The Father as all flesh should. However he confessed he was the way thetruth the life the resurection the son of man the son of God one with the Father the salvation of YHWH. So hear oh Israel the Lord your God is one, and to the gentiles he has brought to you the spirit of adoption

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yep....

 

[BukiRob]

Where did that come from? Jesus was a Republican???



Are you halachaly Jewish (Jewish mother)?
If not, is "goyim" appropriate to use?
Actually, I don't think it's appropriate in any case in this forum.

Goyim literally means the nations....

 

[BukiRob]

I think most people know and accept that Jesus was a Jew. I don't think there are any "shock revelations" about that ready to hit the Churches.

I guess I disagree. Most of the "church" worships a Babylonian "messiah" one that is "gentile" one that doesn't bother with the Torah and did away with it....they very much follow a messiah that is not Jewish. Most gentiles do not grasp that being OT Jewish is inseparable from the cultural/religious way of life.
Yes, I do agree with you when you say that most "christians" recognize Yeshua was "jewish" but what they mean is ETHNICALLY.

They want to follow a perverted teaching of Paul as a justification to do away with the Torah. They fall prey to the very thing scripture warns calling evil good and good evil. Paul calls the Torah (law) HOLY... yet most christians will tell you that the law is bad and a "believer" who observes it is not saved because they are trying to attain salvation through works...

This line of thinking is of course, pure rubbish... yet it is the mainstream line of thought in the "church" today.

 

[BukiRob]

I guess I have always looked at it this way. I am Rob. I am one person. Yet to my wife I am a Husband, to my sons I am a father and to my Father I am a son...

I am not 3 different people I am one person yet I have 3 uniquely distinct and different roles that make me appear very, very different roles.[/I]

------

In the above it seems perfectly reasonable. Your relationships in your example is based on at least three people, giving YOU various titles.

The same with God - Jesus did not say "I and the Father are the same One!" He said instead, "I and the Father are one." John 10:30

Jesus had His own Will, as demonstrated when He prayed to His Father from Gethsemane, and which He aligned with His Father's Will - an act of OBEDIENCE!

Beware of the ones twisted mentally in legal definitions. Legalism is dirtier than fornication.

The word used there is echad... which means one or in total unity.... A man takes a woman as his bride and the two become echad (one) flesh

 

[BukiRob]

To share my understanding of this relationship The Father is life all that comes from him is life. His Spirit is literal breath. As his image the spirit of a man is that man. In the same way The Fathers spirit is him. Also like the widows oil no matter how much comes out it is not lessened.when his image speakes it is his will heart and mind in conjunction with his breath giving a form( sound waves). A thing to remember man is dust and ashes his words are not a pure reflextion of himself. The Father on the other hand only speaks truth and what he speaks is his express image. By this Word the creation was formed, Moses recieved the law, the prophets were instructed. At The Fathers appointed time that same word became flesh. As such he lived as flesh and submitted himself to The Father as all flesh should. However he confessed he was the way thetruth the life the resurection the son of man the son of God one with the Father the salvation of YHWH. So hear oh Israel the Lord your God is one, and to the gentiles he has brought to you the spirit of adoption

WHen you examine proverbs and the psalms you discover that the Torah is called the way, the truth and the life.... Yeshua was declaring he was the living breathing, walking Torah(which of course, IS the Word)

 

[AbbaLove]

wrong thread

 

[AbbaLove]

I can hardly wait until we get to His throne and see all three as one.

Excellent Point!

Being that Elohim is a Spirit and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit then in whom is Yahweh going to manifest His visible Presence? The name Elohim is as an all encompassing plural, inclusive of Hashalush HaKadosh (Trinity).

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

John 3:12
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

The LORD GOD can take on various visible manifestations. For instance Daniel 7:9 and Revelation 1:14-15. Does anyone believe that they will be able to see a visible manifestation of both the Ancient of Days and Yeshua at the same time sitting beside each other or with Yeshua seated at the right hand of Elohim.

 

[Messy]

Originally Posted by visionary
I can hardly wait until we get to His throne and see all three as one.

I think you only see Jesus then. I think Jesus walking on earth was the best Example of three Persons being one Person and working together, the Father spoke, Jesus spoke what He said, the Holy Spirit did the miracles. Just like with creation.

 

[Shimshon]

Excellent Point!

Being that Elohim is a Spirit and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit then in whom is Yahweh going to manifest His visible Presence? The name Elohim is as an all encompassing plural, inclusive of Hashalush HaKadosh (Trinity).

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

John 3:12
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

The LORD GOD can take on various visible manifestations. For instance Daniel 7:9 and Revelation 1:14-15. Does anyone believe that they will be able to see a visible manifestation of both the Ancient of Days and Yeshua at the same time sitting beside each other or with Yeshua seated at the right hand of Elohim.

I believe sin has caused the light of God to refract so we don't see 'One' white light but seperate manifestations of this one light, as light passing through a prism.

God is one, but in order to understand he who is eternal and omnipresent in a 3 dimensional world he must difuse his oneness into seperate parts. Think LIGHT!! Like a beam of light through a prism, the oneness of God hits our hearts through this sinful world and is refracted, displaying 7 colors that made up the One white light.

When the one God speaks his words are as a rainbow. Pureness viewed through imperfection results in refraction. OR Spirit viewed through creation results in refraction. When the one God communicates to and through his creation he appears seperated so that we may understand who he is in total.

As described above, which is really a core Messianic understanding. That all things in scripture lead to Messiah and that all Torah is a pattern of who Messiah is and what he is doing and trying to communicate to us. Spirit speaking to flesh, the Creator operating through his creation. Makes me think how God must be bored being a being of pure white light, so he speaks. And as he does his words become all the colors of the rainbow. Seperated expressions of the One God. God's words are painting life throughout his creation. And even his Word is like a (2) edged sword, dividing the Spirit from the flesh!! So as to express his Oneness!

We are One! is an exact understanding of Echad, and the trinity. I in him he in me, and they in us. United as one. Seperated so we may understand his inner parts. God has borne his heart to us in the form of Yeshua, our Messiah.

 

[ChavaK]

Goyim literally means the nations....

I know that. But it is also frequently used as a slur against Gentiles.

 

[Shimshon]

I know that. But it is also frequently used as a slur against Gentiles.

Not from what i've seen within the Messianic Jewish world. Jew and Gentile one in Messiah.... Most Messianics I have met perceive gentiles as merely non-Jews. Not a slur. But I do remember it historically being used as a slur from those within Orthodox Judaism.

 

[AbbaLove]

Makes me think how God must be bored being a being of pure white light, so he speaks.

As you have implied, White Light Represents Purity. Another way of looking at this is the overlapping of the three additive primary colors resulting in White Light. This overlapping of the primary projected colors of red, blue and green light first produces another lighter color known as magenta (combination of red and blue light), cyan (combination of blue and green light), and yellow (combination of red and green light). When these three lighter colors of projected light (cyan, magenta, yellow) overlap they produce White Light. So how can God be bored being Pure White?

God is White Light ~ Three in ONE. So then who is the third entity if Yeshua is say Red, Holy Spirit is say Blue, then what name do we apply to green? What names do you apply to each one of the so-called Trinity if the LORD GOD (Elohim, YHVH, Ancient of Days) is the composite name of all three?

 

[ChavaK]

Not from what i've seen within the Messianic Jewish world. Jew and Gentile one in Messiah.... Most Messianics I have met perceive gentiles as merely non-Jews. Not a slur.

In my view, the use of it in this thread is intended as a slur.

But I do remember it historically being used as a slur from those within Orthodox Judaism.

Don't pick on the Orthodox, lol. Jews across the spectrum use it, and some of the worse offenders I have met are secular Jews.

 

[AbbaLove]

I believe sin has caused the light of God to refract so we don't see 'One' white light but seperate manifestations of this one light, as light passing through a prism.

Is it OK with you to equate the life giving growth of green chlorophyll with His “Word” as represented by the Tanakh (Torah, Neviim, Ketuvim), the Brit Chadashah, that still small voice and the audible voice of God. Isn't the Trinity of the LORD GOD represented by: The Word (green), The Holy Spirit (blue) and Yeshua Ha Mashiach (red).

Would you agree that we are a three in one being having a body, soul and spirit. Would you also agree that as fallen man our nature is more like the three primary ink pigments used in printing and photography. Instead of becoming white light the combined outcome of magenta, cyan and yellow ink pigments results in a very dark outcome (absent of light) of sin and death.

Our soul needs to be nourished by meditating on the green chlorophyll of the Word. Our fallen three in one being needs to be born again to inherit eternal salvation. Praise God for His Sonshine of pure white light composed of His Blood (red), His Word (green) and His Holy Spirit (blue).

 

[BukiRob]

In my view, the use of it in this thread is intended as a slur.



Don't pick on the Orthodox, lol. Jews across the spectrum use it, and some of the worse offenders I have met are secular Jews.

In some aspects it makes sense that it is a slur. To the Jew, Goyim have rejected the only true G-d. This is particularly true of Israel before Messiah. Goyim were unclean.

 

[ron4shua]

Greetings Saints , as a youngster a read Matthew 28:19-20 and marveled why it had bracket enclosures . Reading all of Scripture over a truth is manifested crystal clear .

Mark 12:29 and Jesus answered him -- `The first of all the commands [is], Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one;
32 And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He;

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one [is] good, except One -- God;

John 1:2 this one was in the beginning with God;
18 God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare.

John 3:2 this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come -- a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.'

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:


18 And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, `Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth;
19 having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days -- till the full end of the age.'
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

( IN BETWEEN ( < --- > ) ADDED LATER ) Not in early reliable MSS Manuscripts .

Constantine Wrote Matthew 28:19 Into Your Bible!

Constantine Wrote Matthew 28:19 Into Your Bible!

What Did Matthew Actually Write, "Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," OR "Go ye, and make disciples of all the nations IN MY NAME"?

Some opinions " freerepublic " , above , are not mine .

(baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, )
The NAME is YAH , That is The SPIRIT that is The FATHER & FILLS The SON . One NAME .

The servant ron .

 

[mercy1061]

In the name of our only One God, by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the Shoa has promoted the resurrection of the Church of Jerusalem (Jewish Christianity), the Church of Simon, James, Mathew, Mark, and John.[/FONT][/SIZE]
The Messianic Jews have two important missions, the one to make known Yeshua the Mashiyach among their fellow Jews. The second, not less important, is to be witness to the Pauline Church about the Jewish roots of Christianity and to increase the awareness to that topic in mainstream Christianity.I am saddened that among Messianic Jews, that the Trinity is still an issue of division. Trinity is just a Greek label of what Yeshua has linked in the same sentence: Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and of the Holy Spirit.(Mathews 28.19). Could someone helps us in giving an Hebrew label of this linkeage? Those can have only a very limited impact on the Pauline Church who holds to the non-Trinitiarian Modalist Monarchianism that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are mere manifestations of the same God. Or in other words, the Father is the Son, the Son is the Holy Ghost.
Could someone translate into Hebraic Father and Son in the formula of &#8220;in the Name of the only One Elohim, by the Father, the Son, and the Ruach haKodesh ?
Let us pray Adonai that He leads us on the right path.

Why do we need a label? What is the purpose of a label? Is it not to tell us the contents inside the container? Why should we put G-d into a container or a box like the gentiles?

A doctor may prescribe medicine for his patient, the patient may read the contents of the medicine with it's side effects printed on the label.

 

[mercy1061]

Well ... God is not the Author of confusion.

On a basic level I could never entertain the monotheism of, say, followers of Islam. A very lonely self-absorbed unloving god which they have and the one who spends most of eternity, ALL ON HIS little OWN! No! "In the beginning was God" - (Elohiim - plural) and before anything else was made, by the Son of His Love.

In the real Lord's prayer, John 17, Jesus wasn't talking to Himself! He speaks of a Oneness with the Father Who loves Him and prays for His disciples to be One with Them even as He and the Father are One. That is still in the future for us because the Bride hasn't become the Wife, yet, in the Spiritual sense! Read the parable of the wise and foolish virgins - Matthew 25

Jesus, the Originator of Life (Acts 3:15) didn't pray to Himself in Gethsemane and not because He felt mortified over the prospect of having nails spiked into His wrists and feet. He knew that His fellowship with the Father would be riven in a manner that would be equivalent to experiencing eternal separation for a sinner cast into hell. While He was there, the Father was reconciling the world to Himself through His Son as His High Priest and Atoning Sacrifice. Jesus also demonstrated, in Gethsemane, that He had a will and that His Father had another will! He always deferred to His Father's will - they are, after all, not the same Person! Unlike schizophrenics, He wasn't debating with Himself! He was suffering the prospect of broken fellowship, something that not many Christians take seriously enough in their own walk. Jesus learned obedience through suffering - and that was obedience to the Father's will (Heb 5 : 8) and we are called to learn the same walk by denying ourselves.

On that Cross, He prayed to His Father, and in the period of darkness He prayed to Eli (My God) and then when it was "FINISHED" still on the Cross, He was able to pray to His Father to Whom He commended His Spirit.

Regarding the notion offered in the forum that the planet was given to Jesus as a gift is TOTALLY eclipsed by Jesus' own words; "ALL Authority has been given to Me in Heaven and on earth!" Matthew 28 : 18

Most Christians spend more time in other people's books rather than the Inspired Scriptures. That is why so many are confused. The tangible relationship available now, is through the Holy Spirit, the Comforter and the One promised to us by Jesus. Sent that we might be led to the Father along Life's narrow way.

Our Heavenly Father has NO grandchildren!

There is only one body, faith, and baptism. Why did Pharisee Saul have to say that?