Messianic Judaism and the Trinity

[Lulav]

then to throw a wrench in the works,

Why does Yeshua call G-d his G-d? Both on earth and in heaven?

 

[Lulav]

Not to be misleading here, so I'll post the passages I'm referring to.

In John 20 he told Mary to " go to my brothers and sisters and tell them, 'I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

This was after the resurrection.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,

Rev 2:18 These things saith the Son of God

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

We just have to understand this,

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[Meowzltov]

It's very confusing to many of us who aren't Jews, too. I must admit I've never understood the "Trinity" or where the concept came from to begin with.
The Bible says to me that there is God the father and Yeshua the son (who I see as a sort of co-regent to whom this planet was given as a gift from the Father) and there is the Holy Spirit whom Yeshua called the comforter.
Where does the idea of a Trinity/three in one God even come from?

It is complicated, which is why I tend to be sympathetic with those who hold alternative views. For myself, I've read whole books on the Trinity and the history leading up to Nicea in an effort to understand it better myself. You are certainly in good company.

To give a very, VERY general overview, we begin with what you have stated already, that there is God the Father, Jesus the son, and the Holy Spirit.

The next step is stating that Jesus is God. This is based on scripture. It is not the only interpretation of scripture, but it is the BEST interpretation of scripture in that it handles well most scriptures, as well as some of the tricky passages without mistranslating them or butchering the grammar, such as John 1, John 8:58, John 20:28, and others.

The third step is avoiding polytheism. Jesus stated the greatest commandment includes "Here O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is ONE." There are only two possibilities: Modalism and Trinitarianism.

The final step is to rule out Modalism. Did Jesus pray to himself? It makes no sense. In reading the scriptures, some texts are problematic to modalism, and some texts are problematic to trinitarianism. But overall, the scriptures do best for trinitarianism.

That is the scriptural argument for Trinitarianism. It is not the only argument. As scripture says, it is the Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth. (1 Tim 3:15) The Church was established by Christ and Christ said the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The holy spirit shall lead to truth. When the bishops came together at Nicea, they were guided by the Holy Spirit. We can trust that the Creed is correct.

 

[visionary]

That is the scriptural argument for Trinitarianism. It is not the only argument. As scripture says, it is the Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth. (1 Tim 3:15) The Church was established by Christ and Christ said the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The holy spirit shall lead to truth. When the bishops came together at Nicea, they were guided by the Holy Spirit. We can trust that the Creed is correct.

I was nodding my head ... thinking OK.. Yeah, I can see where you could see that... until the part about the bishops at Nicea being guided by the Holy Spirit.....

Have you really studied the underlying purpose of this congregational head of the religious Roman power and their goal to control the masses and squash the Nazarenes, and other original groups of the faith? There are some things I can see and agree with, but other things are not the Holy One of Israel's position. This council was presided over by the arch-murderer Constantine, Emperor of Rome, who had assassinated, in cold blood, a dozen of his near relatives, including his own wife let alone the Jewish people and Judaism in its various factions including Messianic Judaism known as Essenes, Nazarenes, etc..

You can always tell if the doctrine is of our Messiah but the results. What resulted out of Nicean Council was the heresy chase that last for centuries. Ever since Constantine first established it as the state religion of Rome, it has been responsible for the death of over fifty million innocent people, under the charge that they were "heretics," because they refused to accept the unreasonable dogmas of the church which most famous claim is their way or the hell highway, which they made sure was paved with blood.

 

[Meowzltov]

Hi viz. The church moves like a glacier, so slowly that you will die waiting to see results, yet it carves through granite. The treatment of the Nazarenes was regrettable, but unlike the Creed it was never dogma. I'm not sure exactly how the split between the gentile churches and the church at Jerusalem came to be, but I suspect that it was part of God's plan to bring in the gentiles. I believe we are now in the days where the fullness of the gentiles has come in.

At any rate, the Catholic church has done a lot of repentance for its treatment of the Jews in general throughout history, and this has included its treatment of Jewish converts. For most of its history, Jewish converts were required to give up our observances. It was considered heresy to so much as light shabbat candles.

However, this is no longer true, and I'm a living example of the turn around. I have the full support of Rome in my observance of Jewish law. I keep shabbat, I eat kosher, I observe the holy days... as well as make sure I keep my catholic obligations. The Hebrew Catholic movement (you can call many of us modern day Nazarenes) has the full approval of Rome. In Israel, where there are many of us, so many of the liturgies have been translated into Hebrew for our benefit. (It is my personal hope that the day will come when we can celebrate Mass using the Liturgy of St James, the bishop of the Church at Jerusalem.) We even have our own bishop. Now that is what I call repentance.

So please find it in your heart to forgive.

PS> Constantine did not establish the Nicene Creed. He had no authority whatsoever as he was not a bishop. He attended the council out of courtesy as he was the emperor. That is all.

 

[visionary]

Hi viz. The church moves like a glacier, so slowly that you will die waiting to see results, yet it carves through granite. The treatment of the Nazarenes was regrettable, but unlike the Creed it was never dogma. I'm not sure exactly how the split between the gentile churches and the church at Jerusalem came to be, but I suspect that it was part of God's plan to bring in the gentiles. I believe we are now in the days where the fullness of the gentiles has come in.

At any rate, the Catholic church has done a lot of repentance for its treatment of the Jews in general throughout history, and this has included its treatment of Jewish converts. For most of its history, Jewish converts were required to give up our observances. It was considered heresy to so much as light shabbat candles.

However, this is no longer true, and I'm a living example of the turn around. I have the full support of Rome in my observance of Jewish law. I keep shabbat, I eat kosher, I observe the holy days... as well as make sure I keep my catholic obligations. The Hebrew Catholic movement (you can call many of us modern day Nazarenes) has the full approval of Rome. In Israel, where there are many of us, so many of the liturgies have been translated into Hebrew for our benefit. (It is my personal hope that the day will come when we can celebrate Mass using the Liturgy of St James, the bishop of the Church at Jerusalem.) We even have our own bishop. Now that is what I call repentance.

So please find it in your heart to forgive.

PS> Constantine did not establish the Nicene Creed. He had no authority whatsoever as he was not a bishop. He attended the council out of courtesy as he was the emperor. That is all.

So would you be in favor of the Vatican moving to Jerusalem and building a temple on the Holy mound where the Papacy can officiate for all faiths?

 

[Meowzltov]

So would you be in favor of the Vatican moving to Jerusalem and building a temple on the Holy mound where the Papacy can officiate for all faiths?

No. The bishopric of Peter was in Rome.

And why would the Pope officiate for all faiths? He is only head of the Church.

I hope the third temple will be built, but it is for the Jews.

I find your questions really really strange. Where are you coming from, and what does it have to do with my post?

 

[Lulav]

I'd rather go under the headship of James who seems to have been thrown under the bus, if not the temple steps.

 

[visionary]

No. The bishopric of Peter was in Rome.

And why would the Pope officiate for all faiths? He is only head of the Church.

I hope the third temple will be built, but it is for the Jews.

I find your questions really really strange. Where are you coming from, and what does it have to do with my post?

Not know about Pope's interest in Jerusalem especially the Holy Mount. ... angles current in the works..

International City of Peace, Jerusalem, headed by the Papacy "Internationalization of Jerusalem".
Gets the "upper room" in the most recent land grab for more "Holy Sites".
Issue of Sovereignty in the Old City of Jerusalem
Siding with Palestine on Israel's right to exist

Why?

Because controlling the entire Old City of Jerusalem (and not just Church properties) and being able to build whatever they want on Mount Zion is critical for the program they have planned to put into play in our capital city. The deal that it has signed with Israel via Yossi Beilin and Shimon Peres (in secret and without the approval of the Knesset) gives The Church not only extraterritorial status to their properties (which is what the bi-lateral agreement the Israeli government signed with the Vatican on December 30th, 1993, put in law) but of control over the entire city as "custodians" under UN presence. In this way the Jews will give up control over the Old City.

The Vatican and Jerusalem

 

[visionary]

A U.N. for Religions in Jerusalem?
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¶12. (U) One of the more intriguing ideas to emerge from the conference was a proposal from Israel's Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger for the establishment of a "United Nations of Religions" -- a permanent assembly of religious leaders where representatives of world religions could meet and make common agreed statements on international developments. Rabbi Metzger suggested that such an institution could help demonstrate the common values shared by different faiths -- particularly the sacredness of every human life -- and overcome growing perceptions of religious division. Sant'Egidio's Claudio Betti commented to DCM that the proposal was doubly significant as it represented one of the first statements he could recall of a senior Jewish leader discussing the possibility of Jerusalem
serving as host to "many religions." https://wikileaks.org/cable/2004/09/04VATICAN3581.html

 

[visionary]

Follow the global trails. They all pass through Rome. Can anybody tell me why George Bush, Tony Blair, Vladimir Putin, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Mahmoud Abbas, and a bride's list of other guests are always traipsing off to the Vatican? Even Obama..

Does it ever strike you as strange that kings and presidents rarely get a visit from the Pope, but they all seem to show up on his doorstep? And all we ever get are photo-ops and press releases. NEVER EVER do we get any printed texts of conversations between these guys.

 

[visionary]

The Vatican is an enormous property owner in Israel. Old City of Jerusalem is the entire ancient city as it existed prior to 1860. That means Rome will own the entire Biblical city of Jerusalem when it is finished negotiations.

United Nations refuses to recognize (or allow) Israeli sovereignty or jurisdiction over Jerusalem. The United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 orders Israel to withdraw to pre-1967 borders, which effectively reserves Jerusalem as an INTERNATIONAL city. That means that the United Nations claims jurisdiction, (shall we say "ownership"?) over it.

The UN owns no other city in this way, yet world leaders are satisfied to force the issue. Jerusalem is a "burdensome stone" to the world and they believe the solution to all sectarian claims to Jerusalem is to force it permanently into the public domain. The UN has, since a 1948 mandate, had a permanent "peacekeeping" military installation established on the so-called "Hill of Evil Counsel," just southeast of the Temple Mount (on the same site where Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus to the Priests for 30 pieces of silver). It employs nearly 400 personnel and has an annual budget of close to $70 million in 2008.

The United Nations claims de facto sovereignty over Jerusalem. UN member nations recognize Tel Aviv as the capital of Israel, even though the Knesset is in Jerusalem. All embassies are in Tel Aviv. None are in Jerusalem.

Vatican is behind the UN push and will do everything in its power to muscle the holy sites into "extraterritorial status." That will give Rome an enormous amount of jurisdiction throughout the "Holy Land" that will not be Jewish nor Muslim nor Arab. Rome will defer the left-overs aka the big headaches to the UN to deal with. The United Nations wants Jerusalem. The Roman Catholic Church wants Jerusalem. The Muslims want Jerusalem. The Jews want Jerusalem.

An historic agreement has been drafted between Israel and the Vatican. The Israeli authorities have granted the Pope an official seat in the room where the Last Supper is believed to have taken place, on Mount Zion in Jerusalem, and where David and Solomon, Jewish kings of Judea, are considered by some researchers, to also be buried.

It is the culmination of a long campaign by the Catholic Church to regain religious stewardship over the place where Jesus is supposed to have broken bread and drunk wine with his disciples on the eve of his crucifixion. Exclusive: A Seat for the Pope at King David's Tomb - Op-Eds - Arutz Sheva

 

[Meowzltov]

It's one thing to say that the Catholic church is interested in Christian sites in Israel. (true) It's quite another thing to say that the Catholic church is interested in building a temple on the mount. (false. the church is completely disinterested.) Where is your evidence that the Pope would specifically want to build the temple?

I'm not even sure if I should really ask that question. The focus of this subforum is bridge building with the church, and this topic is the opposite. The subject of this thread is the trinity, and this topic is not. I'll let the mods decide if this has gotten too far off course.

 

[visionary]

It's one thing to say that the Catholic church is interested in Christian sites in Israel. (true) It's quite another thing to say that the Catholic church is interested in building a temple on the mount. (false. the church is completely disinterested.) Where is your evidence that the Pope would specifically want to build the temple?

I'm not even sure if I should really ask that question. The focus of this subforum is bridge building with the church, and this topic is the opposite. The subject of this thread is the trinity, and this topic is not. I'll let the mods decide if this has gotten too far off course.

fair... I was only responded to your comments.. I wonder if the start of this rabbit trail [yours] will also be dealt with.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT


Folks, this thread has been here for awhile but honestly is not appropriate here. It is not the Messianic Judaism forum nor is it a forum to criticize the Catholic church.

This forum, like all the congregational forums, needs to comply with the site Statement of Faith which is Trinitarian. Debating against the doctrine of the Trinity would be a rule violation.


This thread is closed.
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