Messianic Judaism and the Trinity

[ballachullish]

Well ... God is not the Author of confusion.

On a basic level I could never entertain the monotheism of, say, followers of Islam. A very lonely self-absorbed unloving god which they have and the one who spends most of eternity, ALL ON HIS little OWN! No! "In the beginning was God" - (Elohiim - plural) and before anything else was made, by the Son of His Love.

In the real Lord's prayer, John 17, Jesus wasn't talking to Himself! He speaks of a Oneness with the Father Who loves Him and prays for His disciples to be One with Them even as He and the Father are One. That is still in the future for us because the Bride hasn't become the Wife, yet, in the Spiritual sense! Read the parable of the wise and foolish virgins - Matthew 25

Jesus, the Originator of Life (Acts 3:15) didn't pray to Himself in Gethsemane and not because He felt mortified over the prospect of having nails spiked into His wrists and feet. He knew that His fellowship with the Father would be riven in a manner that would be equivalent to experiencing eternal separation for a sinner cast into hell. While He was there, the Father was reconciling the world to Himself through His Son as His High Priest and Atoning Sacrifice. Jesus also demonstrated, in Gethsemane, that He had a will and that His Father had another will! He always deferred to His Father's will - they are, after all, not the same Person! Unlike schizophrenics, He wasn't debating with Himself! He was suffering the prospect of broken fellowship, something that not many Christians take seriously enough in their own walk. Jesus learned obedience through suffering - and that was obedience to the Father's will (Heb 5 : 8) and we are called to learn the same walk by denying ourselves.

On that Cross, He prayed to His Father, and in the period of darkness He prayed to Eli (My God) and then when it was "FINISHED" still on the Cross, He was able to pray to His Father to Whom He commended His Spirit.

Regarding the notion offered in the forum that the planet was given to Jesus as a gift is TOTALLY eclipsed by Jesus' own words; "ALL Authority has been given to Me in Heaven and on earth!" Matthew 28 : 18

Most Christians spend more time in other people's books rather than the Inspired Scriptures. That is why so many are confused. The tangible relationship available now, is through the Holy Spirit, the Comforter and the One promised to us by Jesus. Sent that we might be led to the Father along Life's narrow way.

Our Heavenly Father has NO grandchildren!

 

[visionary]

Well ... God is not the Author of confusion.

On a basic level I could never entertain the monotheism of, say, followers of Islam. A very lonely self-absorbed unloving god which they have and the one who spends most of eternity, ALL ON HIS little OWN! No! "In the beginning was God" - (Elohiim - plural) and before anything else was made, by the Son of His Love.

In the real Lord's prayer, John 17, Jesus wasn't talking to Himself! He speaks of a Oneness with the Father Who loves Him and prays for His disciples to be One with Them even as He and the Father are One. That is still in the future for us because the Bride hasn't become the Wife, yet, in the Spiritual sense! Read the parable of the wise and foolish virgins - Matthew 25

Jesus, the Originator of Life (Acts 3:15) didn't pray to Himself in Gethsemane and not because He felt mortified over the prospect of having nails spiked into His wrists and feet. He knew that His fellowship with the Father would be riven in a manner that would be equivalent to experiencing eternal separation for a sinner cast into hell. While He was there, the Father was reconciling the world to Himself through His Son as His High Priest and Atoning Sacrifice. Jesus also demonstrated, in Gethsemane, that He had a will and that His Father had another will! He always deferred to His Father's will - they are, after all, not the same Person! Unlike schizophrenics, He wasn't debating with Himself! He was suffering the prospect of broken fellowship, something that not many Christians take seriously enough in their own walk. Jesus learned obedience through suffering - and that was obedience to the Father's will (Heb 5 : 8) and we are called to learn the same walk by denying ourselves.

On that Cross, He prayed to His Father, and in the period of darkness He prayed to Eli (My God) and then when it was "FINISHED" still on the Cross, He was able to pray to His Father to Whom He commended His Spirit.

Regarding the notion offered in the forum that the planet was given to Jesus as a gift is TOTALLY eclipsed by Jesus' own words; "ALL Authority has been given to Me in Heaven and on earth!" Matthew 28 : 18

Most Christians spend more time in other people's books rather than the Inspired Scriptures. That is why so many are confused. The tangible relationship available now, is through the Holy Spirit, the Comforter and the One promised to us by Jesus. Sent that we might be led to the Father along Life's narrow way.

Our Heavenly Father has NO grandchildren!

Now that you have that off your chest, do you feel better? You do know that your preaching is not allowed on this section of the forum?

 

[ballachullish]

not allowed? did I go outside the line?

 

[yedida]

not allowed? did I go outside the line?

Non Messianics are not allowed to teach or debate in this forum.

 

[ballachullish]

Non Messianics are not allowed to teach or debate in this forum.

Now there's a law!!!!!!!!

The Law was given through Moses but Grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ

Read what I wrote again! Of-course I am Messianic and wish to assert what I believe to be clear; Jesus IS the Messiah and King of the Jews as well as the Heavens and the whole Earth!! Praise His Name!

Have a good day ...... for every day we have a Sabbath Rest in the New Covenant.

George Kosinski, born in Ballachullish and lived in Israel for nine years - a place worth visiting.

 

[visionary]

Now there's a law!!!!!!!!

The Law was given through Moses but Grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ

Read what I wrote again! Of-course I am Messianic and wish to assert what I believe to be clear; Jesus IS the Messiah and King of the Jews as well as the Heavens and the whole Earth!! Praise His Name!

Have a good day ...... for every day we have a Sabbath Rest in the New Covenant.

George Kosinski, born in Ballachullish and lived in Israel for nine years - a place worth visiting.

Perhaps I should have been clearer... those who the correct icon have the kind of freedom CF allows on this section of the forum that you are using without proper icon.

 

[ballachullish]

Perhaps I should have been clearer... those who the correct icon have the kind of freedom CF allows on this section of the forum that you are using without proper icon.

Thank you!

Now kindly show me the link for the law of the "Icon" and application thereof

 

[visionary]

House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here:
http://www.christianforums.com/rules/#faq_rule_0
In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach, you may post in fellowship. Members may not teach against established MJ theology... Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action.

 

[ballachullish]

House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here:
http://www.christianforums.com/rules/#faq_rule_0
In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach, you may post in fellowship. Members may not teach against established MJ theology... Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action.

Thank you. I didn't see anything in the rules that I breached. As a "Newbie" I thought that qualified me as a new member! Did I write anything that was contrary to scripture??

Where do I claim my "icon"? Even though postings are allowed "in fellowship" for non members.

I may be listed as having zero power, but God's "power is perfected in weakness".

 

[visionary]

Thank you. I didn't see anything in the rules that I breached. As a "Newbie" I thought that qualified me as a new member! Did I write anything that was contrary to scripture??

Where do I claim my "icon"? Even though postings are allowed "in fellowship" for non members.

I may be listed as having zero power, but God's "power is perfected in weakness".

Do you see that "cross" under your name... do you see the "scroll" under mine. Go to the upper blue line where you see [User CP] click on that, then [edit your details] on the left, click on that. Make you faith icon choice here.

Christian, Denomination Or Other Faith Icon
Please choose your church, denomination or faith.

And that is how you can change your faith icon.

 

[Shimshon]

Perhaps I should have been clearer... those who the correct icon have the kind of freedom CF allows on this section of the forum that you are using without proper icon.

Visionary, I think your ignoring what was determined in the 'icon' thread just this last July.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7757526-14/#post63557288

This is a good example of being mindful of teaching that is off topic to the main forum but its fine in the bridge builders forum

Not that it isn't good to get false info cleared up but to take it sooo far as to begin a teaching series on the subject that has nothing to do with MJ and could naturally offend them too

Lets just say that is off topic to this particular congregational forum

We do have bridge builders for these extended teachings though

Incorrect - seeing that the Anglicans have long spoken on the issue repeatedly as well as Lutherans as well. And they don't have a mindset that participating in the Eucharist is a matter of "eating human flesh" - and have both addressed it when that claim is commonly thrown out in the Protestant world. And the Orthodox certainly do not view Eucharist as a matter of "eating Human Flesh" either....

Both Anglicans and Lutheran are a part of the Protestant world and support Eucharist - particularly when it comes to the views such as consubstantiation and the concept of Real Presence...even though structures and forms of worship within the Anglican world represented a different kind of middle way, or via media, between Reformed Protestantism and Roman Catholicism — a perspective that came to be highly influential in later theories of Anglican identity, and was expressed in the description "Catholic and Reformed." But they, alongside others such as Ortho culture, have long had to address many stereotypes that typically come from Protestants when assuming anything on Eucharist is about cannibalism or "eating human flesh." And this is in addition to even RCC views since many RCCs have often had to address things within the ranks when it comes to others believing it to be a matter within Catholicism of eating flesh - and others who've long noted where the RCC has altered on its stances/clarified a lot of things that were not well understood originally.

On the differing views of the Eucharist within the Protestant world (as well as the RCC and the Orthodox world), this has often come up in extensive discussions/debates on the issue. Rachael Rachael was present for one of them which was referenced elsewhere when it came to inviting her over to CF - as seen in the thread entitled Can anyone explain the different views of the Eucharist? ( #59 , #61 /#70 , #72 and #93 ).

Contra Mundum has also shared on the issue in-depth before as it concerns the ways things play out.

I agree and thanks for pointing that out I will keep that in mind next time - as Bridge Builders is the most appropriate place to discuss issues pertaining to the Church (be it questions other Messianics and visitors raise )- and where things related to that should go with hashing them out

You were in that thread vis.

This person needs no icon change to partake in this sub-forum of Messianic Judaism. Not unless he is blatantly opposing the whole of MJ. He certainly appears NOT to be this type of newbie. He appears to want to share, and that is what this forum is for. A bridge. Please let him pass without further undue attention, thank you.

 

[Shimshon]

Well ... God is not the Author of confusion.

On a basic level I could never entertain the monotheism of, say, followers of Islam. A very lonely self-absorbed unloving god which they have and the one who spends most of eternity, ALL ON HIS little OWN! No! "In the beginning was God" - (Elohiim - plural) and before anything else was made, by the Son of His Love.

In the real Lord's prayer, John 17, Jesus wasn't talking to Himself! He speaks of a Oneness with the Father Who loves Him and prays for His disciples to be One with Them even as He and the Father are One. That is still in the future for us because the Bride hasn't become the Wife, yet, in the Spiritual sense! Read the parable of the wise and foolish virgins - Matthew 25

Jesus, the Originator of Life (Acts 3:15) didn't pray to Himself in Gethsemane and not because He felt mortified over the prospect of having nails spiked into His wrists and feet. He knew that His fellowship with the Father would be riven in a manner that would be equivalent to experiencing eternal separation for a sinner cast into hell. While He was there, the Father was reconciling the world to Himself through His Son as His High Priest and Atoning Sacrifice. Jesus also demonstrated, in Gethsemane, that He had a will and that His Father had another will! He always deferred to His Father's will - they are, after all, not the same Person! Unlike schizophrenics, He wasn't debating with Himself! He was suffering the prospect of broken fellowship, something that not many Christians take seriously enough in their own walk. Jesus learned obedience through suffering - and that was obedience to the Father's will (Heb 5 : 8) and we are called to learn the same walk by denying ourselves.

On that Cross, He prayed to His Father, and in the period of darkness He prayed to Eli (My God) and then when it was "FINISHED" still on the Cross, He was able to pray to His Father to Whom He commended His Spirit.

Regarding the notion offered in the forum that the planet was given to Jesus as a gift is TOTALLY eclipsed by Jesus' own words; "ALL Authority has been given to Me in Heaven and on earth!" Matthew 28 : 18

Most Christians spend more time in other people's books rather than the Inspired Scriptures. That is why so many are confused. The tangible relationship available now, is through the Holy Spirit, the Comforter and the One promised to us by Jesus. Sent that we might be led to the Father along Life's narrow way.

Our Heavenly Father has NO grandchildren!

Amen to the final red highlighted comment! But I have some questions for you? How does this relate to Israel?

Will the bride be Israel, or the Church, or both?

Will Israel be reconciled to God through Messiah as well?

Will God mend the broken fellowship he has with Israel today?

Regarding the notion offered in the forum that the planet was given to Jesus as a gift is TOTALLY eclipsed by Jesus' own words; "ALL Authority has been given to Me in Heaven and on earth!" Matthew 28 : 18

You completely lost me here, where in this forum is that notion presented?

The tangible relationship available now, is through the Holy Spirit, the Comforter and the One promised to us by Jesus. Sent that we might be led to the Father along Life's narrow way.

Again, Amen!

 

[ballachullish]

שלום־עליכם

 

[Shimshon]

שלום־עליכם

And peace to you my brother.

 

[visionary]

Visionary, I think your ignoring what was determined in the 'icon' thread just this last July.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7757526-14/#post63557288


You were in that thread vis.

This person needs no icon change to partake in this sub-forum of Messianic Judaism. Not unless he is blatantly opposing the whole of MJ. He certainly appears NOT to be this type of newbie. He appears to want to share, and that is what this forum is for. A bridge. Please let him pass without further undue attention, thank you.

I ask forgiveness, didn't realize just how open it was here...

 

[ballachullish]

I ask forgiveness, didn't realize just how open it was here...

no offense taken, whatsoever

 

[Shimshon]

I ask forgiveness, didn't realize just how open it was here...

Not a problem vis.

 

[BukiRob]

In the name of our only One God, by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the Shoa has promoted the resurrection of the Church of Jerusalem (Jewish Christianity), the Church of Simon, James, Mathew, Mark, and John.
The Messianic Jews have two important missions, the one to make known Yeshua the Mashiyach among their fellow Jews. The second, not less important, is to be witness to the Pauline Church about the Jewish roots of Christianity and to increase the awareness to that topic in mainstream Christianity.
I am saddened that among Messianic Jews, that the Trinity is still an issue of division. Trinity is just a Greek label of what Yeshua has linked in the same sentence: Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and of the Holy Spirit.(Mathews 28.19). Could someone helps us in giving an Hebrew label of this linkeage? Those can have only a very limited impact on the Pauline Church who holds to the non-Trinitiarian Modalist Monarchianism that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are mere manifestations of the same God. Or in other words, the Father is the Son, the Son is the Holy Ghost.
Could someone translate into Hebraic Father and Son in the formula of “in the Name of the only One Elohim, by the Father, the Son, and the Ruach haKodesh ?
Let us pray Adonai that He leads us on the right path.

I guess I have always looked at it this way. I am Rob. I am one person. Yet to my wife I am a Husband, to my sons I am a father and to my Father I am a son...

I am not 3 different people I am one person yet I have 3 uniquely distinct and different roles that make me appear very, very different roles. In all 3 roles are completely different and not at all the same. I do not behave with my sons or my father relationally the same way I do as my wife. Nor do I relate the same way with my wife as I do my father. And my sons relate completely differently than either my wife or my father.

 

[ballachullish]

I guess I have always looked at it this way. I am Rob. I am one person. Yet to my wife I am a Husband, to my sons I am a father and to my Father I am a son...

I am not 3 different people I am one person yet I have 3 uniquely distinct and different roles that make me appear very, very different roles.[/I]

------

In the above it seems perfectly reasonable. Your relationships in your example is based on at least three people, giving YOU various titles.

The same with God - Jesus did not say "I and the Father are the same One!" He said instead, "I and the Father are one." John 10:30

Jesus had His own Will, as demonstrated when He prayed to His Father from Gethsemane, and which He aligned with His Father's Will - an act of OBEDIENCE!

Beware of the ones twisted mentally in legal definitions. Legalism is dirtier than fornication.

 

[BukiRob]

I guess I have always looked at it this way. I am Rob. I am one person. Yet to my wife I am a Husband, to my sons I am a father and to my Father I am a son...

I am not 3 different people I am one person yet I have 3 uniquely distinct and different roles that make me appear very, very different roles.[/I]

------

In the above it seems perfectly reasonable. Your relationships in your example is based on at least three people, giving YOU various titles.

The same with God - Jesus did not say "I and the Father are the same One!" He said instead, "I and the Father are one." John 10:30

Jesus had His own Will, as demonstrated when He prayed to His Father from Gethsemane, and which He aligned with His Father's Will - an act of OBEDIENCE!

Beware of the ones twisted mentally in legal definitions. Legalism is dirtier than fornication.

True but then, Yeshua was 100% G-d and 100% Man. As a man he had to willingly align his will with the Fathers will....

Its not a perfect example but then, we are human and Adonai is the creator of the universe... this goes beyond our ability to grasp and fully understand