Messianic History

[yeshuaslavejeff]

We all are looking in the mirror dark.. trying to figure it out.. most often from our own perspective.

Why ?

(I don't think I can reply fully in this section, even though my dad is Jewish, I didn't pick the Messianic label when I joined this forum)

 

[rockytopva]

That is why I always emphasize 'my perspective' when talking this sort of thing.

Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. - Matthew 13:52

It is hard to say the degree of truth in each household. But when we read and compare notes, I think we can all get away with better understandings.

 

[Meowzltov]

Why ?

(I don't think I can reply fully in this section, even though my dad is Jewish, I didn't pick the Messianic label when I joined this forum)

jeff, you can always say something in the subheading under your name. For example, although I use "Catholic" rather than "MJ" for my ID, under my name I explain that I'm a Hebrew Catholic. If you specified you are a Jewish Christian, everything would be kosher. We love you!

 

[visionary]

I have always been disappointed that when the history of the body of Messiah is spoken of it usually follows the romanistic history not the history of its Judastic roots. Yeshua was a Jew, not a Roman!!You'll all see my questions here in the future, I am really looking for the actual history of the body of Messiah not how rome overtook it and attempted to reform the empire in the guise of "religion". Indeed it is a major miricle that the truth survived that terrible time of attempts to "dejudize" christianity and remake it in the image of rome.

I agree

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="rockytopva, post: 70344036, member: 279443"]That is why I always emphasize 'my perspective' when talking this sort of thing.

Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. - Matthew 13:52

It is hard to say the degree of truth in each household. But when we read and compare notes, I think we can all get away with better understandings.[/QUOTE

I think without information on the Ebionites is better than with it, just from what I read just now near the beginning of this one thread.
It was potentially very misleading information and could cause some to stumble in their pursuit of Faith and Life in Jesus
by being "instead" of the truth, and distracting from the truth, like a great many number of other groups and teachings also seem to do,
"on purpose" from the enemy of Christ.(varied groups already known and proven that were led astray in the past)

 

[visionary]

QUOTE="rockytopva, post: 70344036, member: 279443"]That is why I always emphasize 'my perspective' when talking this sort of thing.

Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. - Matthew 13:52

It is hard to say the degree of truth in each household. But when we read and compare notes, I think we can all get away with better understandings.[/QUOTE

I think without information on the Ebionites is better than with it, just from what I read just now near the beginning of this one thread.
It was potentially very misleading information and could cause some to stumble in their pursuit of Faith and Life in Jesus
by being "instead" of the truth, and distracting from the truth, like a great many number of other groups and teachings also seem to do,
"on purpose" from the enemy of Christ.(varied groups already known and proven that were led astray in the past)

The upper room was attributed to the the same group John the Baptist hung out with in the wilderness.

 

[visionary]

QUOTE="rockytopva, post: 70344036, member: 279443"]That is why I always emphasize 'my perspective' when talking this sort of thing.

Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. - Matthew 13:52

It is hard to say the degree of truth in each household. But when we read and compare notes, I think we can all get away with better understandings.[/QUOTE

I think without information on the Ebionites is better than with it, just from what I read just now near the beginning of this one thread.
It was potentially very misleading information and could cause some to stumble in their pursuit of Faith and Life in Jesus
by being "instead" of the truth, and distracting from the truth, like a great many number of other groups and teachings also seem to do,
"on purpose" from the enemy of Christ.(varied groups already known and proven that were led astray in the past)

You should never be afraid of history nor of the strength of people's faith here on this forum.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You should never be afraid of history nor of the strength of people's faith here on this forum.

So ?
I've never been afraid of history nor of anyone online, at all.

Oh,
and God says do not take part in any darkness, but rather expose it.

 

[visionary]

Borrowed from another thread, to add to the collection of Messianic history there.

thanks Lulav

Malachi Martin records a meeting between the Desposyni and Pope Sylvester I, but gives no source. "A meeting between Sylvester (Pope Sylvester I) and the Jewish Christian leaders took place in 318....The vital interview was not, as far as we know, recorded, but the issues were very well known, and it is probable the Joses, the oldest of the Christian Jews, spoke on behalf of the Desposyni and the rest. ...That most hallowed name, desposyni, had been respected by all believers in the first century and a half of Christian history. The word literally meant, in Greek, "belonging to the Lord." It was reserved uniquely for Jesus' blood relatives. Every part of the ancient Jewish Christian church had always been governed by a desposynos, and each of them carried one of the names traditional in Jesus' family--Zachary, Joseph, John, James, Joses, Simeon, Matthias, and so on. But no one was ever called Jesus.

Neither Sylvester nor any of the thirty-two popes before him, nor those succeeding him, ever emphasized that there were at least three well-known and authentic lines of legitimate blood descent from Jesus' own family..."

..The Desposyni demanded that Sylvester, who now had Roman patronage, revoke his confirmation of the authority of the Greek Christian bishops at Jerusalem, in Antioch, in Ephesus, and in Alexandria, and to name desposynos bishops to take their place. They asked that the practice of sending cash to Jerusalem as the mother church be resumed...

These blood relatives of Christ demanded the reintroduction of the Law, which included the Sabbath and the Holy Day system of Feasts and New Moons of the Bible.
Pope Sylvester dismissed their claims and said that, from now on, the mother church was in Rome and he insisted they accept the Greek bishops to lead them. ...

This was the last known dialogue with the Sabbath-keeping church in the east led by the disciples who were descended from blood relatives of Jesus the Messiah." (Malachi Martin, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church (1983), 30-31).

 

[AbbaLove]

One For Israel (Messianic Judaism/Christianity) is serving a useful purpose as an Israeli Jewish bridge between Judaism and Christianity. The following One For Israel Youtube presents an excellent presentation of the Three-In-ONE monotheism--the doctrine or belief that there is only one G-d. The many OFI youtube Jewish testimonies about coming to a believing knowledge in Yeshua as Israel's Messiah are wonderfully encouraging

 

[visionary]

Thank you Yeshua HaDerekh
The Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem
The early Christian community of Jerusalem was led by a Council of Elders, and considered itself part of the wider Jewish community. This collegiate system of government in Jerusalem is seen in Acts 11:30 and 15:22.

Eusebius of Caesarea provides the names of an unbroken succession of thirty-six Bishops of Jerusalem up to the year 324. The first sixteen of these bishops were Jewish (from James the Just through Judas). After the Bar Kokhba revolt, Judas ceased to be bishop and all subsequent bishops were Gentiles:
"But since the bishops of the circumcision ceased at this time, it is proper to give here a list of their names from the beginning. The first, then, was James, the so-called brother of the Lord; the second, Symeon; the third, Justus; the fourth, Zacchaeus; the fifth, Tobias; the sixth, Benjamin; the seventh, John; the eighth, Matthias; the ninth, Philip; the tenth, Seneca; the eleventh, Justus; the twelfth, Levi; the thirteenth, Ephres; the fourteenth, Joseph; and finally, the fifteenth, Judas. These are the bishops of Jerusalem that lived between the age of the apostles and the time referred to, all of them belonging to the circumcision."

1. James the Just (until 62)
2. Simeon I (62–107)
3. Justus I (107–113)
4. Zaccheus
5. Tobias
6. Benjamin I
7. John I
8. Matthias I
9. Philip
10. Seneca
11. Justus II
12. Levis
13. Ephram
14. Joseph I
15. Judas (135)

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

..The Desposyni demanded that Sylvester, who now had Roman patronage, revoke his confirmation of the authority of the Greek Christian bishops at Jerusalem, in Antioch, in Ephesus, and in Alexandria, and to name desposynos bishops to take their place.

I disagree with this. "Malachi Martin records a meeting between the Desposyni and Pope Sylvester I, but gives no source". That should bring suspicion regarding the truth of the story. Sylvester had no authority in the Eastern Orthodox Churches. He was bishop IN Rome...period. We had our own Bishops. There were Greek Bishops in Jerusalem since 135 AD because of the Bar Kokhba revolt and Hadrian's anti-Jewish laws, not because of something the Roman church or Bishop did. All of our Bishops in Jerusalem until 135 AD were Jewish.

 

[visionary]

I disagree with this. "Malachi Martin records a meeting between the Desposyni and Pope Sylvester I, but gives no source". That should bring suspicion regarding the truth of the story. Sylvester had no authority in the Eastern Orthodox Churches. He was bishop IN Rome...period. We had our own Bishops. There were Greek Bishops in Jerusalem since 135 AD because of the Bar Kokhba revolt and Hadrian's anti-Jewish laws, not because of something the Roman church or Bishop did. All of our Bishops in Jerusalem until 135 AD were Jewish.

Since it was Lulav's statement, I wonder what she has to add..

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It seems to me relatively fruitless to look for Messianic Judaism before it's appearance in the 19th Century. One can find groups perhaps with a similar emphasis of Law above or equal to Christ in certain sporadic groups before our time but to draw a direct connection between ancient and modern groups requires a continuity that cannot be established except by similarity in thought and not in real communion that the historic Church can be seen to possess.

Who was the first notable Messianic in the 19th century?

 

[visionary]

The last Sabbatarian congregation in Transylvania disappeared in the 19th century and the remaining Sabbatarians, who were known as "Somrei Sabat" (the Hungarian transliteration of the Hebrew words for "Sabbath observers") joined the existing Jewish communities, into which they were eventually absorbed. Sabbatarianism also expanded into Russia, where its adherents were called Subbotniks, and, from there, the movement expanded into other countries. Some of the Russian Subbotniks maintained a Christian identity doctrinally, while others formally converted to Judaism and assimilated within the Jewish communities of Russia. Some of the latter, however, who had become Jewish, although they and their descendants practiced Judaism and had not practiced Christianity for nearly two centuries, still retained a distinct identity as ethnic Russian converts to Judaism until later. Sabbath in seventh-day churches - Wikipedia

 

[visionary]

It seems to me relatively fruitless to look for Messianic Judaism before it's appearance in the 19th Century. One can find groups perhaps with a similar emphasis of Law above or equal to Christ in certain sporadic groups before our time but to draw a direct connection between ancient and modern groups requires a continuity that cannot be established except by similarity in thought and not in real communion that the historic Church can be seen to possess.

Who was the first notable Messianic in the 19th century?

I think you will find this an interesting read. The Yada Blog - brought to you by American Jewish Life

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I think you will find this an interesting read. The Yada Blog - brought to you by American Jewish Life

So it can be safely said Messianicism as the movement we know today more or less had it's start with him?

 

[Heber Book List]

So it can be safely said Messianicism as the movement we know today more or less had it's start with him?

Yes, but I am not so sure about the latter part of his life, as alluded to in that paper. It fails to mention Paul Levertoff who took up Rabinovitch's dream and made it a reality in a building in London in the mid to late 19th C. Eventually, he renounced his Chabad roots and became ordained in the Church of England, founding what was, essentially, a Messianic congregation. From those roots Messianic groupings were formed with support from the UK's First Messianic Prime Minister - Benyamin Disraeli, and people like William Wilberforce, Mendelssohn the composer etc etc., the groups eventually extended to America.

BTW Rabinovitch held a Chair in Hebrew and Jewish Studies at Leipzig University.

But this is a 12 year old thread!!!

 

[Shimshon]

So it can be safely said Messianicism as the movement we know today more or less had it's start with him?

I found this quite an interesting statement at the beginning of the article.

He (Rabinovitch) complained that the Talmud and Jewish law were created by unelected and often unqualified rabbis; that they originally served to promote Jewish nationalism but were now often counterproductive; and, in general, that Judaism needed to take account of critical and rational thinking.

It seems as an emerging Messianic Jew he did not hold highly the way of Rabbinical Judaism.

There was something the Jews were doing that was angering God — that was the only explanation for the continued persecution, for hundreds of years. That something, Rabinovitch finally concluded, was their rejection of Jesus 1850 years prior.

In 1884, Rabinovitch published his “Twelve Articles of Faith,” which quirkily combined traditional and nationalist Jewish ideas with uniquely Christological ones. On the one hand, Rabinovitch wrote, God made an eternal covenant with Abraham and promised his descendents the land of Israel. On the other hand, those descendents had angered God by rejecting Jesus. At an earlier time, said Rabinovitch, it would have been unthinkable to be a Jew who embraced the teachings of Christ. But now that both Judaism and Christianity had been better understood thanks to the teachings of enlightenment philosophy, it was possible to see that the essences of both teachings were the same, and finally embrace them.

He did not merge Rabbinical Judaism with Messiah's message, he rejected Rabbinical Judaism and it's rejection of Messiah. He believed Judaism was being enlightened beyond Rabbinical Judaism and believed it was in fact Rabbinical Judaism's theology of rejection of Messiah that was in err. This shows me he did not intend to further Rabbinical Judaism but that an enlightenment occurred which made it possible to see Messiah was the essence of Judaism, as opposed to Rabbinical Judaism. In Rabbinical Judaism it is unthinkable to embrace the teachings of Messiah. He stripped the meat off RJ and zionist nationalism and combined that meat with the teachings of Messiah. That's the way I read it anyway.

 

[visionary]

So it can be safely said Messianicism as the movement we know today more or less had it's start with him?

No, there is a history of people throughout the centuries who followed this line of theology. The increase in popularity in recent history is attributed to another Jew.