Messianic History

[FredVB]

When they all read through a glass of theology, of course thousands of theologians could all be wrong. They interpret scriptures using something other than the bible itself.

It's greatly unfortunate if it is true that Christians generally don't look to the Bible primarily and rather have what they believe for their faith from what is preached in their church. I know there are such, but I have gone to churches until finding one good enough to go to, and knowing to find one with teaching well from the Bible, and then evidence of their lives being in accordance. I don't see that most are not believing the Bible myself. Still this is with not finding a Messianic congregation.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Messianic Jewish history, additionally, includes those ethnic Jews who came to faith in Christ and integrated willingly into Catholic, Protestant, and to a lesser extent, Orthodox Churches. Trying to find any kind of pure roots or an original Messianic Faith reconstructed is going to be extremely difficult. Knowing exactly what Messianic culture, prayers, rituals, liturgies, theology, Christology, and holy days would have looked / sounded like could be next to impossible. Looking at Syriac Orthodoxy, Maronite Catholicism, and Assyrian Eastern Christianity could give some clues, but can't tell us many things. My thought is, that we'll likely never know if we're doing things totally First Century or not. But that doesn't mean we despair, or don't keep trying to live out faith in Messiah in the here and now. He never changes.

 

[anna ~ grace]

What fascinates me, is the similarities between Eastern and Oriental Orthodox / Catholic practices, and some aspects of Haredi culture. Some Haredim pray through the virtue of departed holy men, or seek their prayers (e.g. "Great Sage Yehuda Ben Moshe, pray for us!") which is startlingly similar to what Ancient Christian communities do. Both are liturgical, as well. Both have the habits of praying at the tombs of especially holy men and women. Kind of neat!

 

[BukiRob]

It's greatly unfortunate if it is true that Christians generally don't look to the Bible primarily and rather have what they believe for their faith from what is preached in their church. I know there are such, but I have gone to churches until finding one good enough to go to, and knowing to find one with teaching well from the Bible, and then evidence of their lives being in accordance. I don't see that most are not believing the Bible myself. Still this is with not finding a Messianic congregation.

All one has to do is read many of the posts on this very message board to see that the concept of putting man-made tradition in front of scripture is alive and well....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

All one has to do is read many of the posts on this very message board to see that the concept of putting man-made tradition in front of scripture is alive and well....

Yes, that is like a great telephone pole sticking out of peoples ears.

Have you found here or anywhere a few or many who are not putting (wrongly) tradition in front of YHWH'S SCRIPTURE? (i.e. like King David seeking someone honest, through all the land)

 

[gadar perets]

All one has to do is read many of the posts on this very message board to see that the concept of putting man-made tradition in front of scripture is alive and well....

Correct. However, it is not only Christians that do so, but Messianics as well.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

All one has to do is read many of the posts on this very message board to see that the concept of putting man-made tradition in front of scripture is alive and well....

That ^^ seems to me to include the whole message board. (are there exceptions?)

Correct. However, it is not only Christians that do so, but Messianics as well.

 

[visionary]

The last Sabbatarian congregation in Transylvania disappeared in the 19th century and the remaining Sabbatarians, who were known as "Somrei Sabat" (the Hungarian transliteration of the Hebrew words for "Sabbath observers") joined the existing Jewish communities, into which they were eventually absorbed. Sabbatarianism also expanded into Russia, where its adherents were called Subbotniks, and, from there, the movement expanded into other countries. Some of the Russian Subbotniks maintained a Christian identity doctrinally, while others formally converted to Judaism and assimilated within the Jewish communities of Russia. Some of the latter, however, who had become Jewish, although they and their descendants practiced Judaism and had not practiced Christianity for nearly two centuries, still retained a distinct identity as ethnic Russian converts to Judaism until later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_seventh-day_churches

 

[visionary]

A report of an inquisition, before which were brought some Waldenses of Moravia in the middle of the 15th century, declares that among the Waldenses "not a few indeed celebrate the Sabbath with the Jews." von Doellinger, Johann Joseph Ignaz (1890). Beitrage zur Sektengeschichte des Mittelalters[Reports on the History of the Sects of the Middle Ages] (2d ed.). Munich. p. 661.

 

[visionary]

The Saint Thomas Christians, also called Syrian Christians or Nasrani, are a community of Christians from Kerala, India, who trace their origins to the evangelistic activity of Thomas the Apostle in the 1st century. In 1599 under Aleixo de Menezes, the Synod of Diamper forcefully converted the East Syriac Saint Thomas Christians (also known as Syrian Christians or Nasranis) of Kerala to the Roman Catholic Church. He had said that they allegedly practiced Nestorian heresy. Benton, Lauren. Law and Colonial Cultures: Legal Regimes in World History, 1400–1900 (Cambridge, 2002), p. 122.

 

[rockytopva]

It is of my perspective that the churches were seven and according to Revelation....

Ephesus - Messianic- Would begin with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Gentile - Would begin with the Apostle to the Uncircumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodox... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholic - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestant - A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Materialistic - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

James, brother to the Lord Jesus, wrote an epistle in which he begins...

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. - James 1:1

This book appears to be written to the Messianic Jew. And to comfort the Messianic Jew in their affliction he begins by saying...

My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; - James 1:2

I wish I could say that the all the Christian congregations welcomed the Messianic Jew with open arms. I first started studying the churches to find the origins of the Pentecostal revival, and found its origins in John Wesley Methodism. It was an amazing thing for me to read that between the original Messianic church at Jerusalem and the John Wesley revivals we have very little of meetings where the Lord was worshiped...

with joy unspeakable and full of glory: - 1 Peter 1:8

As a matter of fact between the churches that Paul set up and the John Wesley revivals we find a great deal of instances where the church was controlled and dominated by mean and hateful men. In which there should be a great deal of apologies issued by church denominations for the way they have treated folk in time. Not only Jewish people but the Ana-Baptist as well, who were unceremoniously drowned by mean and controlling magisterial protestants. And the cause of the holocaust itself could be laid at the feet of the Protestant reformers, who would mis-treat and write bad things about folks for not embracing their doctrine.

“Let others praise ancient times; I am glad I was born in these.”- Ovid

Finally, let us be glad for the times and the seasons in which we were born! I have hesitated to reply this message to this thread... But truth be told...

 

[BukiRob]

Correct. However, it is not only Christians that do so, but Messianics as well.

True. The goal is to grow to where you are being honest with what you see and being willing to drop tradition when it conflicts with scripture. Not an easy thing to do

 

[BukiRob]

Yes, that is like a great telephone pole sticking out of peoples ears.

Have you found here or anywhere a few or many who are not putting (wrongly) tradition in front of YHWH'S SCRIPTURE? (i.e. like King David seeking someone honest, through all the land)

Its a slippery slope. You have to be careful that you dont become prideful and judgmental of those who are either not seeing the revealed truth or who just haven't been challenged in that area by the Ruach

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Y'SHUA is Absolutely and Surely MESSIAH KING SAVIOR.
Nothing about HIM or HIS WORD is slippery.
Instead of slippery, in this world, it is dangerous As HE says in HIS WORD. If you stand up for the truth, anywhere, you will be persecuted (much and necessarily), even unto death (like Y'SHUA and all the Apostles were, and most or many


QUOTE="FredVB"
"When they all read through a glass of theology, of course thousands of theologians could all be wrong. They interpret scriptures using something other than the bible itself."
It's greatly unfortunate if it is true that Christians generally don't look to the Bible primarily and rather have what they believe for their faith from what is preached in their church. I know there are such, but I have gone to churches until finding one good enough to go to, and knowing to find one with teaching well from the Bible, and then evidence of their lives being in accordance. I don't see that most are not believing the Bible myself. Still this is with not finding a Messianic congregation. QUOTE

of the disciples in SCRIPTURE and since then).

 

[BukiRob]

Y'SHUA is Absolutely and Surely MESSIAH KING SAVIOR.
Nothing about HIM or HIS WORD is slippery.
Instead of slippery, in this world, it is dangerous As HE says in HIS WORD. If you stand up for the truth, anywhere, you will be persecuted (much and necessarily), even unto death (like Y'SHUA and all the Apostles were, and most or many


QUOTE="FredVB"
"When they all read through a glass of theology, of course thousands of theologians could all be wrong. They interpret scriptures using something other than the bible itself."
It's greatly unfortunate if it is true that Christians generally don't look to the Bible primarily and rather have what they believe for their faith from what is preached in their church. I know there are such, but I have gone to churches until finding one good enough to go to, and knowing to find one with teaching well from the Bible, and then evidence of their lives being in accordance. I don't see that most are not believing the Bible myself. Still this is with not finding a Messianic congregation. QUOTE

of the disciples in SCRIPTURE and since then).

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with the word as it is perfect. The problem is US (Man)

Much of what believers call "persecution" (at least in the west) is brought on by themselves because of error and NOT because they are being persecuted for standing on scripture.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="BukiRob, post: 70280216, member: 320909"
I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with the word as it is perfect. The problem is US (Man)

Much of what believers call "persecution" (at least in the west) is brought on by themselves because of error and NOT because they are being persecuted for standing on scripture. QUOTE
Perhaps.
It is as Y'SHUA says: Whoever builds upon the ROCK, when the storm comes his house stands;
whoever builds on sand, his house is washed away.

As long as we [ecclesia] build on HIS WORD, the ROCK, FAITH, Y'SHUA as the FATHER accomplishes all things,
we are not
on a "

... ... slippery slope. You have to be careful that you dont become prideful and judgmental

So for the ecclesia we well expect to be martyrs, from the start, just as written;
but
not because we are on a slippery slope,
and not ever looking to be on a slippery slope.

That would not be YHWH'S WORD.

 

[visionary]

Here are the rules for getting to the truth....

1.) Seek ye the Kingdom of God first and His righteousness, then all these things will be added unto you.

2.) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

3.) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

4.) The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

5.) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

6.) All things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

7.) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

This is the best guidance to a real live "word and deed" faith that steps out into the World that Yeshua lives in. I am sure there are more great counsels that we have come to cherish because of how they helped our faith grow.

 

[pat34lee]

There is personal faith and there is public life.

Where does "Go ye therefore..." come into it?
Matthew 28:19-20

And

Matthew 5:14-16
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Where does "Go ye therefore..." come into it?
Matthew 28:19-20

In SCRIPTURE, wasn't this right after Y'SHUA'S PRAYER ?- when HE said the fields were ripe for harvest,
PRAY for laborers,
THEN HE thrust the disciples out ....... ?

TODAY, it could only be AFTER being first born again, then AFTER learning to live like disciples (rare today)... right ?

 

[visionary]

We all are looking in the mirror dark.. trying to figure it out.. most often from our own perspective.