Messianic History

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

No, there is a history of people throughout the centuries who followed this line of theology. The increase in popularity in recent history is attributed to another Jew.

While there have been groups with more Jewish tendencies, I do not believe in a continuing community persisting throughout Church history. The early Judaisers seemed to have disappeared when the empire became Christian and perhaps when Islam took over the middle east.

 

[Heber Book List]

No, there is a history of people throughout the centuries who followed this line of theology. The increase in popularity in recent history is attributed to another Jew.

The question asked, which you answered, was clearly about modern history, not history in general, which is why I affirmed it as correct. Who is the mysterious Jew to whom you refer in modern history?

 

[visionary]

The question asked, which you answered, was clearly about modern history, not history in general, which is why I affirmed it as correct. Who is the mysterious Jew to whom you refer in modern history?

Joseph Rabinowitz established a Hebrew Christian mission and congregation called "Israelites of the New Covenant" in Kishinev, Ukraine in 1884. Actually there are lots of little fires around the world that contributed to this which we know now as MJ. But this is the one I was thinking of when I posted.

"Modern" .. I would say Leopold Cohn because he founded the Brownsville Mission to the Jews in the Brownsville section of Brooklyn, New York and established Chosen People Ministries. But again he isn't the only one.

 

[Heber Book List]

Joseph Rabinowitz established a Hebrew Christian mission and congregation called "Israelites of the New Covenant" in Kishinev, Ukraine in 1884. Actually there are lots of little fires around the world that contributed to this which we know now as MJ. But this is the one I was thinking of when I posted.

"Modern" .. I would say Leopold Cohn because he founded the Brownsville Mission to the Jews in the Brownsville section of Brooklyn, New York and established Chosen People Ministries. But again he isn't the only one.

I had already mentioned Rabinowitz and Levertoff a couple of posts before yours #558, and to which I pointed you in post #562. They were the originators of MJism in the modern history era.

Cohn had hardly been born when Levertoff opened the first Messaianic Church, in East London.

 

[visionary]

While there have been groups with more Jewish tendencies, I do not believe in a continuing community persisting throughout Church history. The early Judaisers seemed to have disappeared when the empire became Christian and perhaps when Islam took over the middle east.

Remember history is written by the victors...

 

[visionary]

I had already mentioned Rabinowitz and Levertoff a couple of posts before yours #558, and to which I pointed you in post #562. They were the originators of MJism in the modern history era.

Cohn had hardly been born when Levertoff opened the first Messaianic Church, in East London.

"modern" qualified the choice for Cohn.

 

[Heber Book List]

"modern" qualified the choice for Cohn.

But not before the original founders of the movement

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Remember history is written by the victors...

Not necessarily. Many Christians during their life were losers who died or suffered persecution at the hand of the state, yet we have their writings because the community preserved them and flourished.

But to me this is a statement of admission, that you cannot prove it historically that there was a continuous Messianic community from Christ until the current day. That evidence exists for the historic Church but not Messianicism.

 

[visionary]

Not necessarily. Many Christians during their life were losers who died or suffered persecution at the hand of the state, yet we have their writings because the community preserved them and flourished.

But to me this is a statement of admission, that you cannot prove it historically that there was a continuous Messianic community from Christ until the current day. That evidence exists for the historic Church but not Messianicism.

You haven't read this entire thread, where there is a collection of those who believe like we do throughout the centuries.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

You haven't read this entire thread, where there is a collection of those who believe like we do throughout the centuries.

Then can you direct me to a Messianic congregation that existed in the 10th century?

 

[Heber Book List]

Then can you direct me to a Messianic congregation that existed in the 10th century?

BCE or CE

 

[pat34lee]

BCE or CE

AD

 

[Open Heart]

I don't think it is a fair comparison to designate Sabbatians as Messianics. Sabbatarians only believe in keeping the 10 commandments in a literal way. They don't care about the other laws.

 

[visionary]

I don't think it is a fair comparison to designate Sabbatians as Messianics. Sabbatarians only believe in keeping the 10 commandments in a literal way. They don't care about the other laws.

Being Jewish, and converting they know the other parts of Torah, and I would say unfair to think they keep just 10.

 

[Open Heart]

Being Jewish, and converting they know the other parts of Torah, and I would say unfair to think they keep just 10.

You and I must have different ideas of what makes a person a Sabbatarian. A Sabbatarian is anyone who keeps the Sabbath. SDA's are Sabbatarians, for example, and they are not Jews.

 

[visionary]

You and I must have different ideas of what makes a person a Sabbatarian. A Sabbatarian is anyone who keeps the Sabbath. SDA's are Sabbatarians, for example, and they are not Jews.

These Sabbatarians were... believers in Yeshua and keepers of the commandments as Jews.

 

[Heber Book List]

These Sabbatarians were... believers in Yeshua and keepers of the commandments as Jews.

Sabbatarianism has two opposing definitions, depending on which dictionary you consult. In some it says that it means Christians who observe the Sabbath on a Sunday morning, whilst others say they keep it on Saturdays, as do the Jews!

You just might be both right!

 

[Open Heart]

These Sabbatarians were... believers in Yeshua and keepers of the commandments as Jews.

Sounds like what we are really talking about are MJ's. I'd love to read about them. Do you have a good historical site?

 

[Dave-W]

But to me this is a statement of admission, that you cannot prove it historically that there was a continuous Messianic community from Christ until the current day. That evidence exists for the historic Church but not Messianicism.

The evidence exists for the "historic church" stamping out Messianism.

Go read Eusubius.

That is why the work of the Toward Jerusalem Council II and the Helsinki Consultation are so important. The "historic church" needs to repent from what they did to us.

 

[Heber Book List]

The evidence exists for the "historic church" stamping out Messianism.

Go read Eusubius.

That is why the work of the Toward Jerusalem Council II and the Helsinki Consultation are so important. The "historic church" needs to repent from what they did to us.

TWC(ii) is a really odd group. I offered to work with them in the UK but, when it became clear I was Ordained, my offer / membership was effectively rejected. This is much the same reason I get from some MJ and Jewish groups, who seem not to realise that Ordained ministers, and some Rabbis, are quite capable of being Messianic and, as such, are well placed to influence people in their own faith, more so than outsiders. The same people then wonder why it is slow to get people in the Church / Shul to understand these things that are so important in the world today.

While they take these views it is no surprise the Church is seen as stamping out MJism - these people / groups are bringing that very situation upon themselves; the insider is far better than the outsider standing afar and shouting that 'the Church' will not listen!

Added: A number of groups are willing to sign up Bishops, even those who are anti Israel, or worse, but not those Ministers who are nearer the people in the local situations