Messianic History

[Dave-W]

TWC(ii) is a really odd group. I offered to work with them in the UK but, when it became clear I was Ordained, my offer / membership was effectively rejected.

Who rejected it? I know a few of the senior members like Dan Juster (ordained Presbyterian pastor) and David C Rudolph. An ordained Catholic priest is also on the board.

 

[Heber Book List]

Who rejected it? I know a few of the senior members like Dan Juster (ordained Presbyterian pastor) and David C Rudolph. An ordained Catholic priest is also on the board.

The guy who was then running the UK 'branch' - it was some years ago, but I took the very clear hint and didn't bother offering again.

 

[Dave-W]

The guy who was then running the UK 'branch'

Was that Johnathan Allen? I know he is the head of the UK branch of Tikkun, and Tikkun is all in with TJCII. But there is also Catholic priest Fr Peter Hocken in Ireland.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The evidence exists for the "historic church" stamping out Messianism.

Go read Eusubius.

That is why the work of the Toward Jerusalem Council II and the Helsinki Consultation are so important. The "historic church" needs to repent from what they did to us.

I have read Eusebius though I don't see him commenting on today's modern communities of Messianics but the history of the historic Church to which he belonged and was part of. Are you thinking of his list of Bishops of Jerusalem who belonged to the family of Christ? Where is the credible link between them and today's Messianics? I don't know of one.

The Church needs to repent of alot of things, but stamping out Messianics is not one of them since you did not exist at the time. A few Judaising groups did exist but they are not ancestors of the Messianic movement.

 

[visionary]

The last Sabbatarian congregation in Transylvania disappeared in the 19th century and the remaining Sabbatarians, who were known as "Somrei Sabat" (the Hungarian transliteration of the Hebrew words for "Sabbath observers") joined the existing Jewish communities, into which they were eventually absorbed. Sabbatarianism also expanded into Russia, where its adherents were called Subbotniks, and, from there, the movement expanded into other countries. Some of the Russian Subbotniks maintained a Christian identity doctrinally, while others formally converted to Judaism and assimilated within the Jewish communities of Russia. Some of the latter, however, who had become Jewish, although they and their descendants practiced Judaism and had not practiced Christianity for nearly two centuries, still retained a distinct identity as ethnic Russian converts to Judaism until later. Sabbath in seventh-day churches - Wikipedia

 

[Dave-W]

I have read Eusebius though I don't see him commenting on today's modern communities of Messianics

Not unless he was a visionary extraordinaire. He wrote of the Nazarenes, the group the modern Messianic community is based on.

He wrote that we were orthodox in doctrine but heretics nonetheless due to observing Jewish practice. In that he lumped us in with the Ebionites and others who actually were heretics.

 

[visionary]

I found this book being marketed by a Christian body, which leads me to believe that they found some interesting bodies of believers listed in this book.

Sabbatarians In Transylvania

This work by Rabbi Samuel Kohn, the Chief Rabbi of Budapest writing in 1894 was published in Hungarian and German.

Sabbatarians in Transylvania

 

[visionary]

Check out the history of Sabbatarians in Hungary after the Reformation. Most of them adopted Jewish custom (even had their on shochet.) By the time of WWII, about half of them chose to go to the concentration camps. The other half went back to Christianity and were allowed to survive.

At a conference in 2003 David Sedaka share that their were Messianic Communities up until at least the 8th Century. He appatrently has had access to some old records as well due to the fact that he is 3rd generation Messianic.

He also mentioned that the Messianic Movement in Europe was booming and that at one particular conference their was over a 1,000 in attendance and that the Messianic community was about 250,000 worldwide guess how many Jewish beleivers in Yeshua their are now? About 250,000. He states that the whole messianic movement in Europe was fairly much wiped out in the Holocaust of 33-45.

 

[visionary]

Another example is the Subbotniki ("Sabbath worshippers" in Russia who became Christians while retaining much of their Jewish identity. SUBBOTNIKI - JewishEncyclopedia.com

In the reign of Alexander I., owing to that czar's personal tolerance, the Subbotniki enjoyed more freedom. Nevertheless the Russian clergy killed in Moghilef (Mohilev) about 100 Subbotniki and their spiritual leaders, including the ex-archbishop Romantzov, while the latter's young son was tortured with red-hot irons before being burned at the stake. The Subbotniki, however, succeeded in gaining a measure of peace by means of an agreement which they made with the Greek-Orthodox popes. In order that the latter might not be the losers from a material standpoint by the defection of the Subbotniki from their congregations, the members of the sect undertook to pay them the usual fee of two rubles for every birth and three rubles for every marriage. The czar then permitted the Subbotniki to profess their faith openly, but on the condition that they should not engage Jewish preachers and should not themselves proselytize among the Christians.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Not unless he was a visionary extraordinaire. He wrote of the Nazarenes, the group the modern Messianic community is based on.

He wrote that we were orthodox in doctrine but heretics nonetheless due to observing Jewish practice. In that he lumped us in with the Ebionites and others who actually were heretics.

To be based on something, instead of the thing itself, indicates a difference in substance or at least a lack of a direct connection tying the new thing together. Modern Messianics might base themselves on ancient groups, but they are not those ancient groups, merely an intellectual re imagining of what they think those communities were. I don't have any problem with this as the Messianic position, though I think a great flaw.

 

[visionary]

To be based on something, instead of the thing itself, indicates a difference in substance or at least a lack of a direct connection tying the new thing together. Modern Messianics might base themselves on ancient groups, but they are not those ancient groups, merely an intellectual re imagining of what they think those communities were. I don't have any problem with this as the Messianic position, though I think a great flaw.

Think of it as 'remnant of her seed".. and where the fruit has been squashed, more spring up somewhere else. ...

 

[Dave-W]

I don't have any problem with this as the Messianic position, though I think a great flaw.

Go look up the Toward Jerusalem Council II web page and read their material. You may think differently afterward.

www.tjcii.org

 

[Dave-W]

Think of it as 'remnant of her seed".. and where the fruit has been squashed, more spring up somewhere else. ...

I like that analogy.

 

[Heber Book List]

Was that Johnathan Allen? I know he is the head of the UK branch of Tikkun, and Tikkun is all in with TJCII. But there is also Catholic priest Fr Peter Hocken in Ireland.

Sorry, I can't recall. I had been invited to write a descriptor by a Bible College for a course on MJism and came across TJC(ii) in my initial preparation, and offered to join in the work they were doing. In the end the course fell foul of financial cutbacks and was never followed through by the College.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Think of it as 'remnant of her seed".. and where the fruit has been squashed, more spring up somewhere else. ...

A remnant is the surviving part. The early groups who are being appealed to here did not survive as far as can be gleamed. It's more apt to describe the Messianic movement as a lesser form of restorationism.

 

[Dave-W]

A remnant is the surviving part. The early groups who are being appealed to here did not survive as far as can be gleamed. It's more apt to describe the Messianic movement as a lesser form of restorationism.

Do you also consider "Justification by faith" restorationism?"
Pentecostalism?
The Saturday Sabbath (Seventh Day Adventist)?

Those were all movements where God restored something lost by the church.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Do you also consider "Justification by faith" restorationism?"
Pentecostalism?
The Saturday Sabbath (Seventh Day Adventist)?

Those were all movements where God restored something lost by the church.

Well yes, by their very nature those groups are Restorationists .

Though I do not consider the Church to have lost anything needing restoring so I reject all of those groups.

 

[Dave-W]

Though I do not consider the Church to have lost anything needing restoring so I reject all of those groups.

And that is where this forum (Messianic) and you part ways.

Did you read anything at the Toward Jerusalem Council II website?

 

[visionary]

A remnant is the surviving part. The early groups who are being appealed to here did not survive as far as can be gleamed. It's more apt to describe the Messianic movement as a lesser form of restorationism.

So just because they have little tidbits of history saved for prosperity of their existence and not enough for you, that makes them restorationism?? .. like that is a bad thing. Restorationism is the work of God, the material, whether handed down, or picked up, is the work of the remnant. Those seeds of truth planted in the souls of the hearer or reader blossom and grow with good soil and quiet times of no persecution. Even with name changes over the generations and nations, it is a sign of the resilience of the Holy Spirit to stir up the people for God.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

So just because they have little tidbits of history saved for prosperity of their existence and not enough for you, that makes them restorationism?? .. like that is a bad thing. Restorationism is the work of God, the material, whether handed down, or picked up, is the work of the remnant. Those seeds of truth planted in the souls of the hearer or reader blossom and grow with good soil and quiet times of no persecution. Even with name changes over the generations and nations, it is a sign of the resilience of the Holy Spirit to stir up the people for God.

What makes them Restorationist is the implicit or explicit claim of some sort of apostasy requiring a restoration in the first place.