Messianic History

[GuardianShua]

Thanks for the links. That helps a little.

 

[visionary]

I can at least provide an outside Academic source quote..


"The term "Christian" and "Christianity" did not occur in the bible in the original language in which it was written, which was Hebrew/Aramaic. Ignatius of Antioch was the first to use this word, the first to refer to followers of the Messiah as Christians, which was later inserted in the bible in place of references to "Nazarenes", "sect of the Nazarenes", or "the way [of the Nazarenes]" when redactors translated the New Testament from Hebrew to Greek and later, to Latin."

From Was the Apostle Paul a Christian?

Here is another independant source...

"Felix referred to Shaul as part of the Way, the Way of the Nazarenes, he did not call him a Christian because this term never appeared in the bible until after the redactors translated the bible from the Hebrew language to the Greek language. They inserted Christian in the book under the guidance of Ignatius, who was one of the first ones to use the term. "

From MoreiYah.com » Bible Studies

I believe you are correct in this... I am also becoming of the persuasion that they also interchanged the term "church" and "synagogue" when translating the work depending on whether it was to be used negatively or not.. revealing their anti-sematic attitude in their choices of words..

 

[yonah_mishael]

Yonah,

I have Tacitus work on my shelf... First off, He wrote the Annals in the 2nd Century in the year 116 A.D around the time Ignatius had already used the term Christian.. Ignatius died in 117 A.D.

Secondly, Tactius uses the word Chrestian instead of Christian in the work which he stated was used by the populace which were not the believers but surrounding pagans.. "Quote: Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite punishments on a class hated for their disgraceful acts, called Chrestians by the populace"

Thirdly, I have already proven by Concordance what the Greek words mean and that they are not interchangeable...

Fourthly, I mentioned the Aramaic manuscripts.. Why? Because I am not a Greek Primacist... I happen to believe that the NT was written in Aramaic which is called Aramaic Primacy... The oldest Aramaic uses Nazarene.. I only quoted the Greek to prove that the earliest Greek manuscripts did not say Christian either...

I'm not allowed to argue on this forum, but I will say that I think it's with good historical reasons that the majority of Christians reject Aramaic Primacy. I can't support any positions against Messianic claims here, even if they are unfounded.

Peace,
YM

 

[Desert Rose]

I havent studied the subject in depth, but what MichaelDAvid is saying is a popular notion among israeli christians ( i dont know any israeli messianics,outside of american prozelytes, so i am not sure waht those believe).

It kind of makes sense that earlier manuscripts were not in greek, after all its wasnt a religion started in Greece or by a Greek, His followers were jews for the most part. Something logically just doesnt add up here. Of course, by the time all the Nicene crooks with their political shenanigans were thru with lumping whole Bible together,books that made it into the Bible were written and rewritten many times, but i believe originals were probably in aramaic.Even if technically not, the ideas and oral versions that made first manuscripts didnt come from the Greeks...

You can't argue, Yohan, but you dont have to argue, just give you opinion and share what you know. Maybe our position is wrong, maybe yours is.

As long as one treats other's beliefs with respect and not claims to have an abslute hold on truth, you can say anything anywhere. I chat with arab friends - not online, in RL- on serious religious issues. Works just great!

 

[A_Pioneer]

Visionary; thank you again for the labor of love, when the Holy Spirit came into me I knew I was of the Way.
Like the evidence of a Hebrew Matthew, all remnants of this or any Hebrew scripts of the Way have been scourged from the face of the earth. So only by the Holy Spirit
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

Thanks to all the other contributers.

Shalom u'vrechot

 

[visionary]

Archbishop Menezes of Goa, convened the Synod of Diamper in 1599, in Kerala. There he ordered all the texts of the syrian nasranis to be burnt. The purpose stated by Menezes was to erase all legacies of antiquity and Jewishness of Jesus teachings. They completely obliterated the records of early Nasrani life and Hebrew - Syriac tradition and imposed on the Nasranis that they were mostly local people who were converted and followers of the Nestorian sect from persia. They argued also that they were persecuted in persia because of the rise of Islam in the middle east. Their evidence is based on an old Knanaya church near Kottayam having an 8th century Persian cross with Pahalvi inscriptions suggesting Nestorian faith. So they thought that Christianity came to Kerala only after the rise of islam in the middle east. However, all nasranis believe that nasranis were descendants of early Jewish settlers who got converted to christianity by the Apostle Thomas in A.D. 52. This fact is mentioned in the Acts of Thomas (a copy of which still survives in a monastry on Mount Sinai), which states that the early Christian converts by the Apostle Thomas in Kerala were early Jewish people settled in the Malabar coast.

Christianity / history of christianity / syrian malabar nasrani

 

[visionary]

Visionary; thank you again for the labor of love, when the Holy Spirit came into me I knew I was of the Way.
Like the evidence of a Hebrew Matthew, all remnants of this or any Hebrew scripts of the Way have been scourged from the face of the earth. So only by the Holy Spirit
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

Thanks to all the other contributers.

Shalom u'vrechot

Thank you... may contributions keep coming in as they are found.

 

[ripple the car]

Another branch of the Messianic Jewish faith flourished in South-West India for about 1400 years, in the Malayali-speaking state of Kerala.

Jews and Hindus already living in the area were evangelized by St. Thomas, and their customs, worship, and identity was uniquely Judeo-Christian.

NSC NETWORK – Lifestyle of Kerala Syrian Christians

NSC NETWORK – Some of the traditions and rituals among the Syrian Christians of Kerala

These Christians called themselves "Nasrani" or roughly "Nazarenes", worshipped in Aramaic, celebrated the Eastern Syriac liturgy on Saturday, kept kosher, and had Jewish names like Yakob, Simon, Thoma, Yohanan, etc.

Later contact with Portuguese missionaries greatly disrupted their traditions and practices, as many were converted into the Catholic Church, while others sought help from and joined the Syriac Orthodox Church.

Today, the St. Thomas Christians are Assyrian Chruch of the East, Oriental Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant.

 

[visionary]

Although Claudius treated Jews, especially those in Asia and Egypt, comparatively well at first, around 49 AD he banished them all from Rome, as stated in the Scripture references in the opening paragraph. Christians were included in the expulsion since they were viewed as merely a Jewish sect.

This goes to verify that Christians were still thought of as a mere Jewish sect even if they were gentiles and in Rome... no less..

It was from 'The Jew and Gentile in the Ancient world' You can read some of it here

These are also by Louis Feldman:

A book titled 'Jewish life and thought among Greeks and Romans' here

'Judaism and Hellenism reconsidered' also speaks of the Jewish expulsion, here

Jesus outside the New Testament here

many thanks to you Lulav

 

[visionary]

Visionary,
I just found an excerpt that may be helpful on pg 5 of 13 under IV he picks up with a reference to Aquila and Priscilla leaving Rome. Hope this helps; I have not had time to dive in to it yet.
http://www.holyfear.net/pdf/bruce/claudius_bruce.pdf

Thank you.. this is excellent.

 

[Lulav]

many thanks to you Lulav

You're welcome!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The Ebionites

They existed just outside of Judea, in Galilee and present-day Syria and Jordan (the Decapolis, Gaulanitis, Perea, and Nabatea, and nearby regions). The exact origin of the Ebionites is debated, but those who held views characteristic of the Ebionites existed in the first century. The Ebionites originated no later than the second century (when they are mentioned by Ireneaus) and continued to exist at least down through the late fourth century (when Epiphanius describes conversations he had with them), and probably continued into the fifth century and perhaps beyond. There are no known modern groups which are direct lineal descendants of the ancient Ebionites.

Who Were the Ebionites?


The Ebionites (from Hebrew ebionim, "the poor") were a sect of early followers of Jesus. They were one of several "Jewish Christian" groups, early followers of Jesus who considered themselves Jews.

They thought of themselves as the true followers of Jesus, but were described as heretics by many early orthodox Christian writers. Some modern writers and groups, including a number of scholars, argue that the Ebionites represented the views of Jesus and of early Christianity better than other early Christian groups.

Sources
There are two chief sources for our knowledge of the literature and ideas of the Ebionites:

1. Descriptions of the Ebionites and brief quotations from their writings by the church fathers, most importantly Irenaeus, Hippolytus, and Epiphanius of Salamis, all of whom considered the Ebionites to be heretics. The lengthiest and most complete of these comes from Epiphanius, who wrote his Panarion in the fourth century, describing and denouncing 80 heretical sects, among them the Ebionites (Panarion 30) and various other "Jewish Christian" and allied groups (Panarion 18, 19, 29, 53).

2. The pseudo-Clementine literature, especially the Recognitions of Clement and The Clementine Homilies, two third-century Christian works, are regarded by general scholarly consensus as largely or entirely Jewish-Christian and specifically Ebionite in origin. This can be found in volume 8 of the Ante-Nicene Fathers.

History of the Ebionites
The Ebionites were a group in the early Christian church which was "Jewish Christian" in orientation, claiming to be the descendants of the original church, observing the Jewish law as they interpreted it but also following Jesus. All of the sources specifically mentioned above agree that the Ebionites denied the divinity of Jesus and accepted the Jewish law. There is general agreement also that they believed in one God, the creator, thus rejecting the views of Marcion; and further that they rejected Paul.

According to Epiphanius, they rejected orthodox Christian beliefs about the divinity of Jesus, were vegetarians, opposed animal sacrifice, and rejected certain texts in the Jewish scriptures (most especially, those pertaining to animal sacrifice). They were loyal to the Mosaic law, but had an idiosyncratic view of that law. They called themselves Ebionites (based on ebionim, "the poor") because, they said, at the time of the apostles they gave all their possessions to the early church (Acts 4:32-35). The Ebionites claimed to have the biological relatives of Jesus among their own number, described by ancient writers as the "desposynoi" ("those who belong to the master").

Epiphanius describes a group which holds views remarkably similar to those in the Recognitions and Homilies. They accepted Jesus as the "true prophet," believe that Christ was in Adam, in the virtue of poverty, reject animal sacrifices, reject the false texts in the (Old Testament) scripture, are vegetarians, and practice daily baptism. Epiphanius says that the "false texts" that the Ebionites reject have to do with commands to offer animal sacrifice; the Homilies go on to describe a number of other passages considered unworthy of God, such as those the Ebionites considered to be questioning God’s omnipotence, knowledge, love, peaceful nature, and righteousness. Epiphanius quotes their gospel as ascribing the words to Jesus, "I have come to destroy the sacrifices" (Panarion 30.16.5), and as ascribing to Jesus rejection of the Passover meat (Panarion 30.22.4), analogous to numerous passages found in the Recognitions and Homilies (e.g. Recognitions 1.36, 1.54, Homilies 3.45, 7.4, 7.8).

They existed just outside of Judea, in Galilee and present-day Syria and Jordan (the Decapolis, Gaulanitis, Perea, and Nabatea, and nearby regions). The exact origin of the Ebionites is debated, but those who held views characteristic of the Ebionites existed in the first century. The Ebionites originated no later than the second century (when they are mentioned by Ireneaus) and continued to exist at least down through the late fourth century (when Epiphanius describes conversations he had with them), and probably continued into the fifth century and perhaps beyond. There are no known modern groups which are direct lineal descendants of the ancient Ebionites.

Writings of the Ebionites
No independent writings of the Ebionites are known to have survived to the present day. We know of such writings only because the church fathers refer to them and occasionally quote from them. Epiphanius describes a gospel of the Ebionites, an Ebionite "acts of the apostles," the "travels of Peter," and "the Ascents of James." Other church fathers, such as Jerome, sometimes quote from one or another of the gospels attributed to the Ebionites.

A number of other groups are described by ancient writers or modern scholars as "Jewish Christian." Among these are the Nazoraeans (the spelling is uncertain), Cerinthians, Symmachians (followers of the Ebionite scribe Symmachus), Elkasaites (the spelling is uncertain), Sampsaeans, and Ossaeans. Much less is known about these other groups than about the Ebionites. The relationship of these other groups to each other, whether they existed independently of each other, and what their views are, is debated by modern scholars and ancient writers. Epiphanius clearly distinguishes between "Ebionites" and the "Nazoraeans," but Jerome evidently believes (Letter 112) that they are both the same group.

It is generally agreed that the Cerinthians were not "Jewish Christian" at all, but only mistakenly described as "Jewish Christian" by the church fathers, and that the Elkasaites, the Sampsaeans, and Ossaeans — the latter two groups mentioned only by Epiphanius in ancient writings — are different names, as Epiphanius says, for the same group.

Many thanks for taking the time to write this in-depth/lengthy answer alongside other similar ones, as the information has been very enjoyable

 

[visionary]

There is Biblical and extra-Biblical evidence that such Messianic Jewish community life existed. Ya-akov (James) wrote to the "twelve tribes scattered among the nations" (James 1:1), giving advice on their community life that he assumed was made up mainly of Jewish followers of Yeshua.

In two places in the Book of Acts, James reveals his emphasis on Messianic Jewish community life. In Acts 21:20, he introduces his expectation that Jews should live as Jews.

"When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: 'You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.'" (Acts 21:20)

This concept implies that these thousands of believers were identifying with other Jewish believers in community life, in congregational life. In contrast, in Acts 15:19-21, James tells us that Gentiles should not be pressured to live as Jews, though they are permitted to investigate Jewish life if they so desire.

"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." (Acts 15:19-21)

Messianic Jewish Movement

 

[visionary]

It is clear that the Culdees were much closer to the Eastern Christianity than the Catholic Church, and that they preserved many unusual customs that can be described as "Judaizing". For example, clearly they were Sabbath-observers, abstaining from work on the Seventh Day of the week. And here are some other such traditions they seemed to follow
--- abstaining from the unclean meats
... and circumcision..

The Twelve Apostles and the Culdees

I will see if I can find more about this group.. as it lends itself to the fact that the "gospel" from the disciples did reach the "known world" of their time. Most of their history I have found to be re-written to obliterate the Judaism/Christian foundation at its earliest roots and the taking over with catholic control in its later years.. Is this fact or fiction? there seems to be some wisp of legend left to indicate Judaism observances with a Yeshua faith.

 

[visionary]

Irenaeus, who followed the Sunday custom, also stated, however, that bishop Polycarp (a disciple of John the Apostle) of Smyrna (c.69-c.155) in Asia Minor, one of the Seven churches of Asia, was Quartodeciman, celebrating on Nisan 14. Shortly after Anicetus became bishop of Rome in about 155, Polycarp had visited Rome, and among the topics discussed was this divergence of custom. But, Irenaeus noted,

Anicetus could not persuade Polycarp to forgo the [Quartodeciman] observance inasmuch as these things had been always observed by John the disciple of the Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant; nor did Polycarp persuade Anicetus to keep it: Anicetus said that he must hold to the way of the elders before him.

Quartodecimanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.keithhunt.com/Quarto.html
http://www.yahweh.org/publications/fsdy/fs17Chap.pdf
http://www.amazon.com/Pascha-Quartodecimans-22Popular-Patristics-22-Patristics/dp/0881412171

This book indicates their history of sabbath observance...
http://books.google.com/books?id=3q...CcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=culdees sabbath&f=false

“An Irish presbyter, Columba, feeling himself stirred with missionary zeal, and doubtless knowing the wretched condition of the savage Scots and Picts, in the year 565 took with him twelve other missionaries and passed over to Scotland!” (M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia, Vol. II, page 601.)

They were called Culdees, and settled and made their headquarters on the little isle of Iona. They had, for the most part, “a simple and primitive form of Christianity” very different from the pomp of Romanism.

Two eminent Catholic authors speak of Columba as follows:

“Having continued his labors in Scotland thirty-four years, he clearly and openly foretold his death, and on Saturday, the ninth of June, said to his disciple Diermit, ‘This day is called the Sabbath, that is, the day of rest, and such will it truly be to me. For it will put an end to my labors.’” (Butler’s Lives of the Fathers, Martyrs, and Principal Saints, art. St. Columba, A.D. 597.)

“Today is Saturday, the day which the Holy Scriptures call the Sabbath, or rest. And it will truly be my day of rest, for it shall be the last of my laborious life.” (The Monks of the West, Vol. II, page 104.)
http://www.giveshare.org/HolyDay/changeofsabbath/change-of-sabbath-17.html

 

[aniello]

Referring to Viz's post #155, I am wondering if Polycarp and his religious community remained Shabbat/Saturday Sabbath keeping as well. Any information on this and/or thoughts?

Off to Shul now. Dopo(later).

Pace.

 

[visionary]

Referring to Viz's post #155, I am wondering if Polycarp and his religious community remained Shabbat/Saturday Sabbath keeping as well. Any information on this and/or thoughts?

Off to Shul now. Dopo(later).

Pace.

seems to be..

http://www.yahweh.org/publications/fsdy/fs32AppG.pdf

Because the Smyrnaean letter known as the Martyrdom of Polycarp states that Polycarp was taken on the day of the Sabbath and killed on the Great Sabbath, some believe that this is evidence that the Smyrnaeans under Polycarp observed the seventh day Sabbath.

This book may shed some light ..

Polycarp Summary | BookRags.com

The Smyrnaeans Christians kept the Sabbath while Rome was adding Sunday...

http://smyrnaeanchurch.org/AboutUs/History.dsp

 

[FredVB]

seems to be..

http://www.yahweh.org/publications/fsdy/fs32AppG.pdf

Because the Smyrnaean letter known as the Martyrdom of Polycarp states that Polycarp was taken on the day of the Sabbath and killed on the Great Sabbath, some believe that this is evidence that the Smyrnaeans under Polycarp observed the seventh day Sabbath.
This book may shed some light ..

Polycarp Summary | BookRags.com

The Smyrnaeans Christians kept the Sabbath while Rome was adding Sunday...

http://smyrnaeanchurch.org/AboutUs/History.dsp

Yahweh indeed said to remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy, so it is holy. Anyway, whatever anyone does. Early Christians were Jewish or except for the very first several thousand, otherwise and associated with them, and joined them at synagogue on the Sabbath.

 

[visionary]

Yahweh indeed said to remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy, so it is holy. Anyway, whatever anyone does. Early Christians were Jewish or except for the very first several thousand, otherwise and associated with them, and joined them at synagogue on the Sabbath.

amen... Here is a collection of quotes..

http://jerusalemcouncil.org/articles/reference/history-torah-observant-believers/

 

[FredVB]

Yahweh indeed said to remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy, so it is holy. Anyway, whatever anyone does. Early Christians were Jewish or except for the very first several thousand, otherwise and associated with them, and joined them at synagogue on the Sabbath.

amen... Here is a collection of quotes..

The Documented History of Torah Observant Believers - The Jerusalem Council

There is mention of Believers meeting on the first day of the week, and that was fine, even in recognition of the Messiah's resurrection. It was not thought of as a replacement of the Sabbath or the new day appointed as sabbath. Positions like that came centuries later, not from sure scriptural support.