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Messianic History

visionary

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I found this book being marketed by a Christian body, which leads me to believe that they found some interesting bodies of believers listed in this book.

Sabbatarians In Transylvania

This work by Rabbi Samuel Kohn, the Chief Rabbi of Budapest writing in 1894 was published in Hungarian and German.

Sabbatarians in Transylvania

Since it is not translated into english, I will not be able to verify if this could be a lead .. into believers of the ancient way in Yeshua.
 
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visionary

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I have resurrected this thread to counter and position brought up on another thread regarding the Messianic Judaism faith being a recent event.. This thread I believe reveals people in all generations who have believed in some manners "the law of Moses and the faith of Yeshua as the Messiah" similar to what we have within our circles today.
 
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MikhaelDavid

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Here are some interesting quotes from Early Greek Christian Fathers...


The Nazarenes accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law.
-Jerome, On. Is. 8:14

The Nazarenes believe that Messiah, the Son of God, was born of the Virgin Mary.
-Jerome, Letter 75 Jerome to Augustine

Matthew, also called Levi, apostle and aforetimes publican, composed a gospel of Christ at first published in Judea in Hebrew for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed, but this was afterwards translated into Greek though by what author is uncertain. The Hebrew itself has been preserved until the present day in the library at Cæsarea which Pamphilus so diligently gathered. I have also had the opportunity of having the volume described to me by the Nazarenes of Beroea, a city of Syria, who use it.
-Jerome, Lives of Illustrius Men Ch.3

The Nazarenes have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion except for their belief in Christ, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that God is one, and that his Son is Jesus Christ.
-Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.2



He [Philo of Alexandria] arrived during Passover and observed their customs, and how some of them kept the holy week of Passover.
Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.5.1


Ignatius of Antioch was the first to use the word Christian, the first to refer to followers of the Messiah as Christians. It seems from history that around the time of Ignatius a group broke off of the Nazarenes and started calling themselves Christians and they started to teach against keeping Torah. This was after the Death of the Apostles..
 
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GuardianShua

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Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. (Peter said)
1 Peter 4:16
However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. (Peter said)
 
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MikhaelDavid

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Here are some quotes that show that the earliest believers followed the Feast Days..

John Chrysostom said, "The festivals of the .. Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. "


When, it says, the day of Pentecost was fully come: that is, when at the Pentecost, while about it, in short. For it was essential that the present events likewise should take place during the feast, that those who had witnessed the crucifixion of Christ, might also behold these...And, it says, there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men. The fact of their dwelling there was a sign of piety: that being of so many nations they should have left country, and home, and relations, and be abiding there...for it was Pentecost. (Chrysostom J. The homilies of S. John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople: on the Acts of the Apostles, Volume 1, Homily IV


St. Jerome (PL 25, 1529 & 1536-7) speaking of how the believers celebrated the Feast of Tabernacles…tells us that they gave the feast a millenarian significance


Eusebius recorded that Polycrates of Ephesus, around 195 A.D. wrote the following to the Roman Bishop Victor who, as the previous writing showed, wanted all who professed Christ to change Passover from the 14th of Nisan to Sunday:



We observe the exact day; neither adding, nor taking away. For in Asia also great lights have fallen asleep, which shall rise again on the day of the Lord’s coming, when he shall come with glory from heaven, and shall seek out all the saints. Among these are Philip, one of the twelve apostles, who fell asleep in Hierapolis; and his two aged virgin daughters, and another daughter, who lived in the Holy Spirit and now rests at Ephesus; and, moreover, John, who was both a witness and a teacher, who reclined upon the bosom of the Lord, and, being a priest, wore the sacerdotal plate. He fell asleep at Ephesus. And Polycarp in Smyrna, who was a bishop and martyr; and Thraseas, bishop and martyr from Eumenia, who fell asleep in Smyrna. Why need I mention the bishop and martyr Sagaris who fell asleep in Laodicea, or the blessed Papirius, or Melito, the Eunuch who lived altogether in the Holy Spirit, and who lies in Sardis, awaiting the episcopate from heaven, when he shall rise from the dead? All these observed the fourteenth day of the passover according to the Gospel, deviating in no respect, but following the rule of faith. And I also, Polycrates, the least of you all, do according to the tradition of my relatives, some of whom I have closely followed. For seven of my relatives were bishops; and I am the eighth. And my relatives always observed the day when the people put away the leaven. I, therefore, brethren, who have lived sixty-five years in the Lord, and have met with the brethren throughout the world, and have gone through every Holy Scripture, am not affrighted by terrifying words. For those greater than I have said ‘ We ought to obey God rather than man’ (Eusebius. Church History, Book V, Chapter 24.





Irenaeus records this about Passover in reference to Polycarp: And when the blessed Polycarp was sojourning in Rome in the time of Anicetus, although a slight controversy had arisen among them as to certain other points…For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp to forego the observance [in his own way], inasmuch as these things had been always observed by John the disciple of our Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant; nor, on the other hand, could Polycarp succeed in persuading Anicetus to keep [the observance in his way], for he maintained that he was bound to adhere to the usage of the presbyters who preceded him.


Apollinaris, wrote: "There are, then, some who through ignorance raise disputes about these things (though their conduct is pardonable: for ignorance is no subject for blame — it rather needs further instruction…)… The fourteenth day, the true Passover of the Lord; the great sacrifice, the Son of God instead of the lamb, who was bound, who bound the strong, and who was judged, though Judge of living and dead, and who was delivered into the hands of sinners to be crucified, who was lifted up on the horns of the unicorn, and who was pierced in His holy side, who poured forth from His side the two purifying elements, water and blood, word and spirit, and who was buried on the day of the passover, the stone being placed upon the tomb" From the Book Concerning Passover
 
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MikhaelDavid

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Those were later inserted into the Greek text... The early Aramaic shows that those text say Nazarenes..

The Earliest Greek Text along with some Aramaic Manuscripts states "Chrestian" which is not the same as Christian..

Chrestian comes from the Greek chrestos having the meaning; good manners or morals, pleasant, better, useful, beneficial, kind, gracious. Christos on the other hand means to be anointed. The literal translation of Christians is "anointed men" or "anointlings". This is far removed from the general meaning of Chrestians which is "good men".

Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. (Peter said)
1 Peter 4:16
However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. (Peter said)
 
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aniello

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Ummmm, question.

MD are you saying that "Christian" in Acts 11:26 and also Peter's use of "Christian" as cited really don't mean that but rather the "chrestian" thing you related meaning good or mannerly? Also, how do you factually link Ignatius to being the first to use the term "Christian"? My little Bible searcher won't even turn up the name "Ignatius".

Here is a nice quote of Ignatius. Ignatius was not a Jew. Ignatius had more to say about Jews, the Sabbath and Torah authority, if only implied. He also is credited as the first to use the term "katolikos", IIRC. I do not consider him as a follower of the original Messianic Jewish faith, since he is making such a fast departure from it.

Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (98-117A.D.) – Epistle to the Magnesians
For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God’s favor…it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity.


Have to get into water rights hearings now, probably will go clear into evening. I don't know why this switched fonts to this rather than the beginning font. This computer stuff! I remember the good ol' days when we had Birch bark and charcoal to write with. AAAaaaaah yes.:)
 
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MikhaelDavid

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Aniello,


Here are some proofs of the word Chrestian in early greek manuscript

Acts 11:26

Acts11-26%20copy.jpg



Acts 26:28

Acts26folio315bSinaiticus2.jpg





1 Peter 4:15

1Peter4-16folio320b2.jpg


Without any exception the original word in every instance is not XPICTIAN (CHRISTIAN) but XPHCTIAN (CHRESTIAN) as can be seen in these photographs of the actual Greek manuscript.

I wish I had a photo scan of the Earliest Aramaic but I don't..

Ignatius is the first to use the term Christian or Christianity in the works of the Early Church... It is the earliest appearance in the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers writing.. Which I have read extensively.

And you are completely right.. Ignatius was against things Jewish and wrote against them.. He seemed to be the ring leader of the breakaway sect of Christians from the Nazarenes which would make sense if he coined the term Christian and Christianity.


Ummmm, question.

MD are you saying that "Christian" in Acts 11:26 and also Peter's use of "Christian" as cited really don't mean that but rather the "chrestian" thing you related meaning good or mannerly? Also, how do you factually link Ignatius to being the first to use the term "Christian"? My little Bible searcher won't even turn up the name "Ignatius".

Here is a nice quote of Ignatius. Ignatius was not a Jew. Ignatius had more to say about Jews, the Sabbath and Torah authority, if only implied. He also is credited as the first to use the term "katolikos", IIRC. I do not consider him as a follower of the original Messianic Jewish faith, since he is making such a fast departure from it.

Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (98-117A.D.) – Epistle to the Magnesians
For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God’s favor…it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity.


Have to get into water rights hearings now, probably will go clear into evening. I don't know why this switched fonts to this rather than the beginning font. This computer stuff! I remember the good ol' days when we had Birch bark and charcoal to write with. AAAaaaaah yes.:)
 
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GuardianShua

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It does not add up! The earliest recorded use of the term outside the Bible was when Tacitus recorded that Nero blamed the "Christians" for the Great Fire of Rome in AD 64. In Jerusalem the disciples were already called Nazarenes of the Nazarite sect of Judaism. Before people were called Christians, they were called converts to Judaism. The words Messianic and Christianity mean the same thing.
 
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visionary

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Let me repeat.... it is not the name that counts.. it is how they lived and were known for their faith... the biggest notable distinction is having the faith of Yeshua while living a Torah observant lifestyle ..... and this is in comparison to those who were of the Roman persuasion.
 
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visionary

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Here are some interesting quotes from Early Greek Christian Fathers...


The Nazarenes accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law.
-Jerome, On. Is. 8:14

The Nazarenes believe that Messiah, the Son of God, was born of the Virgin Mary.
-Jerome, Letter 75 Jerome to Augustine

Matthew, also called Levi, apostle and aforetimes publican, composed a gospel of Christ at first published in Judea in Hebrew for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed, but this was afterwards translated into Greek though by what author is uncertain. The Hebrew itself has been preserved until the present day in the library at Cæsarea which Pamphilus so diligently gathered. I have also had the opportunity of having the volume described to me by the Nazarenes of Beroea, a city of Syria, who use it.
-Jerome, Lives of Illustrius Men Ch.3

The Nazarenes have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion except for their belief in Christ, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that God is one, and that his Son is Jesus Christ.
-Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.2



He [Philo of Alexandria] arrived during Passover and observed their customs, and how some of them kept the holy week of Passover.
Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.5.1


Ignatius of Antioch was the first to use the word Christian, the first to refer to followers of the Messiah as Christians. It seems from history that around the time of Ignatius a group broke off of the Nazarenes and started calling themselves Christians and they started to teach against keeping Torah. This was after the Death of the Apostles..
Excellent finds .. thank you:clap:
 
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visionary

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Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. (Peter said)
1 Peter 4:16
However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. (Peter said)
And that was probably the last time period that Judaism had a sect called Christians.
 
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yonah_mishael

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Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. (Peter said)
1 Peter 4:16
However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. (Peter said)

:thumbsup: Exactly what I was thinking.
 
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yonah_mishael

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And that was probably the last time period that Judaism had a sect called Christians.

@visionary: Did Judaism ever have a sect called Christians?

@MikhaelDavid: Tacitus also says "Chrestian" rather than "Christian". Does this mean that he wasn't referring to the Christians when he said that "Chrestian" believed that "Chrestus" (always understood to refer to "Christos") was God? Tacitus wrote in the beginning of the second Century, and when he heard Greek, would it not have been the case that η (eta) and ι (iota) sounded the same already? If they were heard the same, would it surprise anyone if χριστιανος and χρηστιανος were interchanged? What do you make of these issues? (I realize that in Latin there's a difference between and [e], but the real issue is the Greek original sounds, which could have been confused before their transcription into Latin.) It's clear that Tacitus was writing about Christians and Christ, whether he wrote it as Chrestiani and Chrestus or otherwise.
 
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MikhaelDavid

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Yonah,

I have Tacitus work on my shelf... First off, He wrote the Annals in the 2nd Century in the year 116 A.D around the time Ignatius had already used the term Christian.. Ignatius died in 117 A.D.

Secondly, Tactius uses the word Chrestian instead of Christian in the work which he stated was used by the populace which were not the believers but surrounding pagans.. "Quote: Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite punishments on a class hated for their disgraceful acts, called Chrestians by the populace"

Thirdly, I have already proven by Concordance what the Greek words mean and that they are not interchangeable...

Fourthly, I mentioned the Aramaic manuscripts.. Why? Because I am not a Greek Primacist... I happen to believe that the NT was written in Aramaic which is called Aramaic Primacy... The oldest Aramaic uses Nazarene.. I only quoted the Greek to prove that the earliest Greek manuscripts did not say Christian either...



@visionary: Did Judaism ever have a sect called Christians?

@MikhaelDavid: Tacitus also says "Chrestian" rather than "Christian". Does this mean that he wasn't referring to the Christians when he said that "Chrestian" believed that "Chrestus" (always understood to refer to "Christos") was God? Tacitus wrote in the beginning of the second Century, and when he heard Greek, would it not have been the case that η (eta) and ι (iota) sounded the same already? If they were heard the same, would it surprise anyone if χριστιανος and χρηστιανος were interchanged? What do you make of these issues? (I realize that in Latin there's a difference between and [e], but the real issue is the Greek original sounds, which could have been confused before their transcription into Latin.) It's clear that Tacitus was writing about Christians and Christ, whether he wrote it as Chrestiani and Chrestus or otherwise.
 
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visionary

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@visionary: Did Judaism ever have a sect called Christians?

@MikhaelDavid: Tacitus also says "Chrestian" rather than "Christian". Does this mean that he wasn't referring to the Christians when he said that "Chrestian" believed that "Chrestus" (always understood to refer to "Christos") was God? Tacitus wrote in the beginning of the second Century, and when he heard Greek, would it not have been the case that η (eta) and ι (iota) sounded the same already? If they were heard the same, would it surprise anyone if χριστιανος and χρηστιανος were interchanged? What do you make of these issues? (I realize that in Latin there's a difference between and [e], but the real issue is the Greek original sounds, which could have been confused before their transcription into Latin.) It's clear that Tacitus was writing about Christians and Christ, whether he wrote it as Chrestiani and Chrestus or otherwise.
as the book of Acts was about the travels and mostly the missionary work of Paul, I would say that it was a sect of Judaism [a sect that had a faith in Yeshua as the Messiah] which he was preaching in the synagogue every sabbath... I do not believe we shoudl think or see it any other way.. even though it has been presented differently by sunday keepers who have been representing Christians since around 321....because of the flood of gentiles into the synagogue and later into their own home churches, and congregations....into the faith, which cause the people of Antioch to nick name them as such...
 
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GuardianShua

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Yonah,

I have Tacitus work on my shelf... First off, He wrote the Annals in the 2nd Century in the year 116 A.D around the time Ignatius had already used the term Christian.. Ignatius died in 117 A.D.

Secondly, Tactius uses the word Chrestian instead of Christian in the work which he stated was used by the populace which were not the believers but surrounding pagans.. "Quote: Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite punishments on a class hated for their disgraceful acts, called Chrestians by the populace"

Thirdly, I have already proven by Concordance what the Greek words mean and that they are not interchangeable...

Fourthly, I mentioned the Aramaic manuscripts.. Why? Because I am not a Greek Primacist... I happen to believe that the NT was written in Aramaic which is called Aramaic Primacy... The oldest Aramaic uses Nazarene.. I only quoted the Greek to prove that the earliest Greek manuscripts did not say Christian either...
It sure would be great if you could produce the document in Aramaic using the word Nazarene.
 
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MikhaelDavid

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I can at least provide an outside Academic source quote..


"The term "Christian" and "Christianity" did not occur in the bible in the original language in which it was written, which was Hebrew/Aramaic. Ignatius of Antioch was the first to use this word, the first to refer to followers of the Messiah as Christians, which was later inserted in the bible in place of references to "Nazarenes", "sect of the Nazarenes", or "the way [of the Nazarenes]" when redactors translated the New Testament from Hebrew to Greek and later, to Latin."

From Was the Apostle Paul a Christian?

Here is another independant source...

"Felix referred to Shaul as part of the Way, the Way of the Nazarenes, he did not call him a Christian because this term never appeared in the bible until after the redactors translated the bible from the Hebrew language to the Greek language. They inserted Christian in the book under the guidance of Ignatius, who was one of the first ones to use the term. "

From http://moreiyah.com/modules.php?name=Newsletter_Web&op=nlb_article&artid=124

It sure would be great if you could produce the document in Aramaic using the word Nazarene.
 
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