Messiah and the Covenant

[Pilgrimer]

Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, is yet to happen. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean we won't receive atonement. Those who walk in His narrow Way will indeed receive atonement. It's just something we're waiting for.

So there is no atonement under the Old Covenant.

And there is no atonement yet under the New Covenant.

So your sins have separated you from God and there is no remedy?

Excuse me but that's a really strange, and depressing, doctrine.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[ananda]

So there is no atonement under the Old Covenant.

Yes, there is ... it involves repentance, fasting, prayer, abstaining from work, and a scapegoat, etc. (FYI, I believe we are currently under the "Old" Covenant, which has been renewed by Messiah.)

And there is no atonement yet under the New Covenant. So your sins have separated you from God and there is no remedy? Excuse me but that's a really strange, and depressing, doctrine. In Christ, Pilgrimer

The final atonement will happen on a future Yom Kippur ... Messiah is our atonement, and if we continue to walk in trust, repentance, and obedience, we have that guaranteed atonement to look forward to.

 

[visionary]

The Day of Atonement was the day when the High Priest went into the Holiest with the blood of bulls and goats and made atonement for sin. Are you saying Jesus has not fulfilled this important ministry?

And I disagree, Yeshua is indeed married, and his wife is all those who have been joined with Jesus in spirit.

"What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh? But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit ... what? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price."

The bride price with which we were purchased was the precious blood of Jesus.

The means by which we are joined in spirit with Jesus is by partaking of his body and blood.

That's why it is called the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb."

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Wedding supper always happen after the wedding.. it will be part of the things that happen during the 1000 year break.

 

[ananda]

And I disagree, Yeshua is indeed married, and his wife is all those who have been joined with Jesus in spirit.

We are the betrothed, or engaged. We are the virgins waiting with our lamps filled and lit for the day and the hour which no one knows (Yom Teruah) for the bridegroom to return, for His final atonement (Yom Kippur) and our marriage and eternal rest (Sukkot).

The seven moedim are not merely "Jewish holidays" - they are also guideposts and they are His appointment days with us, to show us the Way of Salvation. We must walk with Messiah along His narrow Way:

Passover: We must trust Messiah and enter into His Way, taking His shed blood upon ourselves.
Unleavened Bread: We must repent of our sins, and die with Messiah to the world.
Firstfruits: We must live again in obedience, producing fruit for Messiah and the Father.
Shavuot (Pentecost): We must embrace His Spirit Who teaches us Torah and His Ways.
Yom Teruah: We must wait patiently for His return, on the day which no man knows the day or the hour.
Yom Kippur: We will stand in judgment, and receive His redemption.
Sukkot: We will be married, and rest eternally with Him.

I believe Messiah's parables were designed to bring our attention to His Path and these guideposts along His Path.

 

[visionary]

So there is no atonement under the Old Covenant.

And there is no atonement yet under the New Covenant.

So your sins have separated you from God and there is no remedy?

Excuse me but that's a really strange, and depressing, doctrine.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

so there is a confusion regarding atonement I see.. Let's remember that God has appointed a Day of Judgment and it is called the Day of Atonement... There are those by faith with the sacrifice and Priest in the temple and those who just see what is outside in front of the temple... Choose this day whom you will serve.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Yes, there is ... it involves repentance, fasting, prayer, abstaining from work, and a scapegoat, etc. (FYI, I believe we are currently under the "Old" Covenant, which has been renewed by Messiah.)

The final atonement will happen on a future Yom Kippur ... Messiah is our atonement, and if we continue to walk in trust, repentance, and obedience, we have that guaranteed atonement to look forward to.

Explain this to me.

You said there is atonement under the Old Covenant through repentance, fasting, prayer, abstaining from work, and a scapegoat.

But you also said “Messiah is (present tense) our atonement.”

But you also said there is a future atonement.

So that’s three atonements, none of which includes the atonement of the Law, and only one of which includes the atonement of the Gospel.

Where did the other two atonements come from?

And also, you said “Messiah is (present tense) our atonement.” How exactly did Jesus become our atonement?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

P.S. The goat for Azazel was only half of the Day of Atonement sacrifice. What about the goat for Jehovah? The one which was actually sacrificed in the Temple and whose blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat?

 

[Pilgrimer]

Passover: We must trust Messiah and enter into His Way, taking His shed blood upon ourselves.

But you stated that atonement is available under a renewed Old Covenant through repentance, fasting, prayer, abstaining from work, and a scapegoat. So why exactly do we need to take the shed blood of Jesus upon ourselves?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[visionary]

Explain this to me.

You said there is atonement under the Old Covenant through repentance, fasting, prayer, abstaining from work, and a scapegoat.

But you also said “Messiah is (present tense) our atonement.”

But you also said there is a future atonement.

So that’s three atonements, none of which includes the atonement of the Law, and only one of which includes the atonement of the Gospel.

Where did the other two atonements come from?

And also, you said “Messiah is (present tense) our atonement.” How exactly did Jesus become our atonement?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

P.S. The goat for Azazel was only half of the Day of Atonement sacrifice. What about the goat for Jehovah? The one which was actually sacrificed in the Temple and whose blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat?

Law of God needs no atonement.. It is perfect as it is.

 

[JLB777]

Understood.
You are among those of Christianity who believe that Paul was a fraud, a hypocrite and a chameleon.
Question: How can someone be a BONDSERVANT of Messiah if they are “worried” and concerned about what men think of them?

For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. Galatians 1:10
It’s kind of ironic that you believe Paul was guilty of the very same thing he rebuked Peter of.

In Galatians 2 Peter was “being a hypocrite” along with some other believing Jews, separating themselves from the Gentiles when the “circumcision party” was around, and associating themselves with the Gentiles when they weren’t.
Paul took Peter aside and rebuked him for behaving like a sinner! Peter was not being straightforward about the gospel. He was being wishy-washy! The exact same thing you’re ‘accusing’ Paul of.

In 1 Corinthians 11:1 Paul tells us to “Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.” Do you believe Paul could truly be a bondservant of Messiah, if he didn’t walk in the same manner that Messiah walked?


I’m sorry but this is a bogus statement, no offense. Paul’s own testimony?

Paul’s own testimony was Acts 24:14; I confess that I believe EVERYTHING that agrees with the Law of God.
Paul’s own testimony was Acts 20:21; I walk orderly and keep the Law of God
Paul’s own testimony was Acts 25:8; I have committed no offense against the Law of the Temple.
Paul’s own testimony was Romans 3:31: Do we nullify the Law by our salvation? God forbid, we ESTABLISH the Law.
Paul’s own testimony was Romans 7:22: I joyfully concur with the Law of God
Paul’s own testimony was Romans 7:12, 14, 25: I serve the spiritual, righteous and good Law of God.

Just five CLEAR confessions from Paul himself, that completely disagree with your statement.

Paul NEVER claimed to be free from the obedience of God’s Instructions. (If you want to talk about your interpretations of phrases such as “under the law” and “works of the law” we can Scripturally discuss those)

what a hypocrite.
Oh and “under the law” does NOT mean obedient to the Law of God. Those who are saved are NOT under the law. Think about that for a second.



To get into the “physical/spiritual” aspects of the Law would be way to lengthy and frankly off topic…
There is a context behind most of Paul’s writing.
Not sure if you knew this from your studies, but Paul was dealing with a Gentile crowd that was ‘forced’ or ‘coerced’ into misusing the Law and it’s commandments. He was constantly having to teach them the deeper meaning of the commandments, because many were outwardly circumcising without even understanding the commandment of circumcision, let alone the spiritual meanings behind each commandment.

according to your interpretation of that passage.
If I remember correctly, the Spirit leads us in ALL Truth.
Psalm 119:142 and 151 tells us that God’s Law and His Commandments ARE TRUTH.
Do you mean to tell me that once you are saved, the Spirit leads you in a truth OTHER than His Instructions?
We might be led by different spirits, if that’s the case.


Question:
If I open up an Trigonometry book and try teaching 9th grade trig…
Then I’m followed by the greatest mathematician who has ever lived teaches the same 9th grade trig…
Will or will not the entire class be blown away by the depth, breadth and substance that the mathematician will bring to the class, as opposed to my methods and teaching?

Same thing with Messiah. He IS the PERFECT TORAH TEACHER. He didn’t preach from a different Torah in the sermon on the mount. He CORRECTLY taught the Torah of His Father!
Do you honestly believe that God didn’t have “lusting” in mind when He gave the adultery and coveting and envying commandments? Are you kidding me?
Messiah simply brought out the COMPLETE meaning to the Torah of God. This is what true “fulfilling the Law” means. It’s correctly interpreting and teaching the Torah!


Oh brother, are you seriously bringing up a “man’s tradition”?
Both Mark 7 and Matthew 15 make it crystal clear that this was man’s tradition!
Nowhere in the Torah does God command this “command”.
Next.



WOW! Talk about twisting Scripture.
Nowhere in Matthew 5:20 does God mention “a righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the law”.
It’s kinda scary the means that you are using to come to your teaching. Deuteronomy 13:1-6 keeps coming up in my mind with each word you say on here.
Netzarim already addressed this mistake you made so I won’t repeat it.
Stop adding to God’s Word to try and prove your point. It’s kind of blasphemous. (Deut 4:2)

Read Mark 7:8 and the entire chapter of Matthew 23 while you’re at it. You are in for a shocking!

I’m simply skimming now…because as this post goes on…It’s error upon error.
This new covenant you speak of, will have the SAME LAW of God written on the hearts and minds of the partakers. GO figure.
Read Ezekiel 36:25-28…and tell me what the Spirit of God will cause us to walk in…

Law of God needs no atonement.. It is perfect as it is.

Mankind needs atonement. That is the topic of discussion.

Please answer the question, if you can?


JLB

 

[visionary]

Mankind needs atonement. That is the topic of discussion.

Please answer the question, if you can?


JLB

Atonement is the moment of reconciliation between man and God. The services give the picture of the time when it will all go down.. What happens in the heavenly temple is what goes on in the Most Holy. What happens on earth is what is seen by the congregation while this all goes on... Check out Rev 11. You will notice in verse 1 and 2... two different groups... and it all happens because of their theology at the time.

 

[Frogster]

Law of God needs no atonement.. It is perfect as it is.

The bible says the law aroused sin in Rom 7:5, it is the power of sin in 1 Cor 15:56, sin has dominion under law, Rom 6;14, and the law was added to increase sin, in Rom 5;20.

Peter said his fathers were under yoke, while under law at the council meeting, and that was an experiential historic truth, that was pre council meeting in Acts 15.

 

[Frogster]

Yes, there is ... it involves repentance, fasting, prayer, abstaining from work, and a scapegoat, etc. (FYI, I believe we are currently under the "Old" Covenant, which has been renewed by Messiah.)

The final atonement will happen on a future Yom Kippur ... Messiah is our atonement, and if we continue to walk in trust, repentance, and obedience, we have that guaranteed atonement to look forward to.

the old cov is not renenwed, or that would bind the gentiles to judaism, and we see historically and scripturally that is not the way.

So just what laws are written on Gentile hearts? Am I commanded to keep the food laws, not wear interwoven clothing, keep all the jewish feasts?

Are Christians forced to circumcise their males on the 8th day?

After all, if the full mosaic law was written internally, wouldn't that mean that I would have to follow it all externally?

lol...no one can, no more temple, 70 ad was a big global hint, as the writer of Hebrews warned them as they hit their 40 year mark..

You bro frog...

 

[Frogster]

As long as I "believe in Jesus," it's ok for me to break the 10 commandments, correct?

The Jewish Christians in Antioch were living as gentiles, they were not under food restrictions, and scripture says it was a waste of time, when they started following Sabbath in Galatia... 4:10-11..



The gospel era came...

 

[Pilgrimer]

Law of God needs no atonement.. It is perfect as it is.

The atonement of the Law refers to the provisions made within the law for atonement to be made for God's people, it does not mean atonement for the Law.

But I agree, the Law is perfect. The point is that the Law could not make men perfect.

Which is why another Covenant, founded on better sacrifices, and with better promises, was needed, promised, foretold, foreshadowed, and brought to pass.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[tzadik]

As long as I "believe in Jesus," it's ok for me to break the 10 commandments, correct?

Brilliant question.

Now on to the answers!

 

[Frogster]

Brilliant question.

Now on to the answers!

how elemental, no one wants to kill or steal, as said over and over again, but u won't deal with the fact that under law, sin will have dominion, and the law will arouse sin, as proved over and over to u.

why this? said to christians, as scripture is teaching about how they should live, under the power of grace, not law. Where will sin have dominion?




Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Atonement is the moment of reconciliation between man and God.

Agreed. The issue is in this: how is atonement effected? How was it effected under the Old Covenant? And how is it effected under the New Covenant?

The services give the picture of the time when it will all go down.. What happens in the heavenly temple is what goes on in the Most Holy.

Again, agreed. The earthly services which effected atonement under the Old Covenant gave a picture of how atonement would be effected under the New Covenant.

Where I differ with you is this: atonement under the New Covenant has already been effected. Jesus has already ascended to Heaven and entered the Holiest and appeared in the presence of the Father and offered himself, his own body and blood, as a final sacrifice, and thereby has already made atonement for sin, once, for all, for ever.

And on a personal note, it is on the basis of that very atoning work of Jesus that you at this very moment stand reconciled with God, your sins have been washed away, and your fellowship with God has been restored ... on the basis of the atoning work of Jesus.

There is no more need for any further atonement sacrifices or bloody offerings, offered up according to the Law, which is why the Father Himself removed those things and took them out of the way, so that there is no question, you have the evidence of your own eyes, there is now only one way for man to be reconciled with God, and that is through the body and blood of Jesus.

It sounds like some of these guys are trying to straddle a fence between the Old Way and the New Way. We must each make a decision, are you going to put your faith in reconciliation with God through the Old Covenant, or the New ... in atonement by the blood of bulls and goats, or atonement by the blood of Jesus? It's a simple choice, however much men try to add on burdensome doctrines that make void the Gospel.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[ananda]

You said there is atonement under the Old Covenant through repentance, fasting, prayer, abstaining from work, and a scapegoat. But you also said “Messiah is (present tense) our atonement.” But you also said there is a future atonement. So that’s three atonements, none of which includes the atonement of the Law, and only one of which includes the atonement of the Gospel. Where did the other two atonements come from? And also, you said “Messiah is (present tense) our atonement.” How exactly did Jesus become our atonement?

Messiah is (present tense) and shall be (future) our atonement in two different senses, as I comprehend it.

We sin in our daily lives, and we receive Messiah's atonement when we repent of that sin and return to His Way. We can still return to sin the next day, whether inadvertently or not. Messiah, in this way, was the fulfillment of the animal part of atonement. He did not fulfill or remove our obligation to repent, abstain from work, etc.

On the final fulfillment of Yom Kippur, we will receive Messiah's atonement for all our sins, even the ones we weren't aware of. We will be completely restored and enabled to live a sinless, new life with Him for eternity.

 

[ananda]

But you stated that atonement is available under a renewed Old Covenant through repentance, fasting, prayer, abstaining from work, and a scapegoat. So why exactly do we need to take the shed blood of Jesus upon ourselves? In Christ, Pilgrimer

I don't believe that the Passover sacrifice of Messiah was for atonement of our sins, as is commonly believed.

The blood of Messiah is painted on the doorposts of His House, and His Way, by the Father. His door is open to anyone who wishes to dwell therein. We enter into the narrow door of His House and Way, when we receive His blood by our trust in Him. By this, we are protected from the Destroyer. (His Passover sacrifice was clearly foreshadowed by the Passover found in Torah.) So, forgiveness of sins is Yom Kippur, not Passover.

 

[ananda]

It sounds like some of these guys are trying to straddle a fence between the Old Way and the New Way. We must each make a decision, are you going to put your faith in reconciliation with God through the Old Covenant, or the New ... in atonement by the blood of bulls and goats, or atonement by the blood of Jesus? It's a simple choice, however much men try to add on burdensome doctrines that make void the Gospel. In Christ, Pilgrimer

Jeremiah 31:31-34 is the main prophecy regarding the coming of the New Covenant. In verse 34, we see that the conditions described there have not been fulfilled yet: we are still teaching one another, and not everyone knows YHWH. We are not in the period of the New Covenant.