Messiah and the Covenant

[JLB777]

By nature do the things IN THE LAW

Without reading the Law!

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


JLB

 

[visionary]

Without reading the Law!

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


JLB

If you are lead by the Holy Spirit, it would be into obedience to the Law of God.

 

[JLB777]

If you are lead by the Holy Spirit, it would be into obedience to the Law of God.

If you are led by The Spirit you are walking in righteousness that is NOT OF THE LAW.

Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?--


You are wrong again!

JLB

 

[tzadik]

If you are led by The Spirit you are walking in righteousness that is NOT OF THE LAW.

Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?--


You are wrong again!

JLB

Man...
It's sad and sobering to see how one's misinterpretation or mistranslation or misunderstanding of Scriptural phrases could throw an entire theology in the wrong direction.

Without a proper understanding of "under the law" and "works of the law" ---you will forever see the Holy, Righteous and Perfect Law of God as something NEGATIVE, BURDENSOME and AGAINST YOU.


7. The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8. The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether.
10. They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb.
11. Moreover, by them Your servant is warned; In keeping them there is great reward.

Question: Why is it that I can agree with David's assessment of the Law above, but you can't?

 

[visionary]

If you are led by The Spirit you are walking in righteousness that is NOT OF THE LAW.

Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?--


You are wrong again!

JLB

The Law draws the line of where righteousness starts.

 

[Clare73]

... if this is so, why would you arbitrarily end the reference at verse 22?

That's were the prophecy regarding the destruction of Jerusalem ends.

If Sabbath ended at the cross, then Joseph of Arimathaea and the Galilean women must have sinned when they observed the Sabbath day after the death of Messiah on the cross: "And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment." Lk 23:56, Mk 16:1.

Slavery ended long before news of the Emancipation Proclamation reached the South on June 19, and the slaves were then freed.

 

[Clare73]

If the Law of Messiah IS the Law of the Father...

Scripture presents the law given by Moses and the law given by Christ; e.g.,

"If you love me, you will obey what I command. . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father." (Jn 14:15, 21).

And what are the commands the Father gave him to speak?

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." (Jn 13:34).

"By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (not if you devote yourselves to written regulations). (Jn 13:35)

"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you." (Jn 15:12)

"This is my command: Love each other." (Jn 15:17)

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." (Lk 6:27-28)


The Word of God shows that

• Christ gave law with the same authority as the Father gave law,
• and the law of Christ which he gave is the law of God, they are one, they are the same.

The commands the Father gave Christ to speak are the law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2), which is love (Jas 2:8; Ro 13:8-10), and because the Father gave them to him to speak, they are the law of God (1Co 9:21), as are the laws God gave to Moses.

Both are the law of God, which God has the authority to change the conditions of, set aside, etc., which the Word of God reveals he has done.

The law of Moses has been set aside (Heb 7:18), and the people of God are now under the law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2), which bears no curse, instead of the law of Moses, with its curse for transgression (Dt 27:26)

 

[Clare73]

The problem with similar threads is that you end up rebutting the same argument twice each time.

Now the question is, DID He fulfill EVERYTHING the Law and the Prophets spoke concerning Him?
Or did He fulfill EVERYTHING the Law and the Prophets spoke concerning His FIRST COMING?
Do you believe Messiah’s coming back for unfinished business? Do you believe that ANY part of His Second Coming is prophesied in the Law and the Prophets?

Christ has fulfilled what was spoken of him in the law of Moses.

 

[ananda]

The law of Moses has been set aside (Heb 7:18), and the people of God are now under the law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2), which bears no curse, instead of the law of Moses, with its curse for transgression (Dt 27:26)

Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for YHWH Elohim proveth you, to know whether ye love YHWH Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after YHWH Elohim, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from YHWH Elohim, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee. Deu 13:3-5

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isa 5:20 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the Torah of YHWH. Isa 30:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of YHWH; and what wisdom is in them? Jer 8:9 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Mt 15:3

 

[JLB777]

Perhaps your Bible does, but not my Scriptures!

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6

In the New King James it is rendered DISOBEDIENCE.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,


Unbelief is disobedience to God.

Trying to get people to go back under the Law is heresy!

People who practice and teach heresy are excluded from God's Kingdom!

Galatians 5:19-21

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


JLB

 

[ananda]

Hebrews 4:6 ... Galatians 5:19-21 ...

Were these books identified by Messiah as "Scripture," yes or no?

 

[JLB777]

Were any books in the bible identified as scripture by Jesus?

JLB

 

[ananda]

Were any books in the bible identified as scripture by Jesus? JLB

Yes. In the gospels, Messiah only appealed to the Law, Prophets, and Writings and referenced them as Scripture. It is also important to note that He appealed more to the Law and the Prophets than the Writings section. Messiah recognized the traditional divisions of Scripture, and it appears He also recognized their differing levels of authority.

 

[Clare73]

Were these books identified by Messiah as "Scripture," yes or no?

Were the four gospels identified by Messiah as Scripture?

 

[suzybeezy]

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[JLB777]

Yes. In the gospels, Messiah only appealed to the Law, Prophets, and Writings and referenced them as Scripture. It is also important to note that He appealed more to the Law and the Prophets than the Writings section. Messiah recognized the traditional divisions of Scripture, and it appears He also recognized their differing levels of authority.

I will remind you of the context of this discussion.

Your quote -

Were these books identified by Messiah as "Scripture," yes or no?


So the question is for you, which specific books of the Law, the prophets or the Writings did Messiah identify as scripture?

Personally I believe Genesis through Revelation is scripture and is profitable for instruction, for reproof ...


JLB

 

[ananda]

Were the four gospels identified by Messiah as Scripture?

Messiah's Words were identified by YHWH as Scripture (Deu 18:18). Matthew & John are two first-hand witnesses to Messiah's Words, and thus fulfills Torah's requirements for a sufficient number of witnesses.

 

[ananda]

I will remind you of the context of this discussion. Your quote - Were these books identified by Messiah as "Scripture," yes or no? So the question is for you, which specific books of the Law, the prophets or the Writings did Messiah identify as scripture? Personally I believe Genesis through Revelation is scripture and is profitable for instruction, for reproof ... JLB

Messiah did not distingush between any of the books of the Law, the Prophets, or the Writings. Since He referred to them as a whole, they are all to be taken as Scripture, with varying degrees of authority.

 

[JLB777]

Messiah did not distingush between any of the books of the Law, the Prophets, or the Writings. Since He referred to them as a whole, they are all to be taken as Scripture, with varying degrees of authority.

Which specific books are refereed to as scripture.

There are many books that are referred to as the Law, Prophets and writings. Which books did Jesus refer to as scripture?

The lost book of Moses, The book of Enoch, The apocrypha which books did Jesus refer to as scripture.

That was the question you asked which books?

Please answer with scripture!


JLB

 

[JLB777]

Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for YHWH Elohim proveth you, to know whether ye love YHWH Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after YHWH Elohim, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from YHWH Elohim, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee. Deu 13:3-5

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isa 5:20 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the Torah of YHWH. Isa 30:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of YHWH; and what wisdom is in them? Jer 8:9 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Mt 15:3

I notice that you keep quoting Deuteronomy 13 to try and invalidate Paul's Apostleship and ministry. By this you are stating that Paul was a false prophet and his writings are not to be heeded.

Is this correct?
I believe it is, since you describe yourself as a NON-PAULINE MESSIANIC.

The problem with the scripture you used to invalidate Paul, Deuteronomy 13, you forgot to quote to part that is litmus test.

Let me show you where you are not rightly dividing this scripture!


1 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods'--which you have not known--'and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Paul never said to the people "Go after other gods".

Paul preached the Gospel, -

in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

which is to say, he turned people toward God, not away from God!

Warning to those who teach another Gospel -

3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. 6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

Paul warned of those who turn people away from God by preaching another Gospel, that they are cursed!

You should be very careful who you call evil.

The Apostles,elders, and brethren in Jerusalem along with The Holy Spirit all accepted and validated Paul as an Apostle of God!

1 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." 3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away. 4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. 5 And when they arrived in Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. They also had John as their assistant. 6 Now when they had gone through the island to Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus, 7 who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man. This man called for Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9 Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10 and said, "O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?


Does that sound like Paul turned people away from God!

According to Deuteronomy 13 Paul is a true man of God!

The Holy Spirit validated his ministry by signs wonders and miracles, that the Gospel he preached TURNED PEOPLE TO GOD!




WOW TO THEM THAT CALL GOOD EVIL!


JLB