Messiah and the Covenant

[JLB777]

I don't believe that the Passover sacrifice of Messiah was for atonement of our sins, as is commonly believed.

The blood of Messiah is painted on the doorposts of His House, and His Way, by the Father. His door is open to anyone who wishes to dwell therein. We enter into the narrow door of His House and Way, when we receive His blood by our trust in Him. By this, we are protected from the Destroyer. (His Passover sacrifice was clearly foreshadowed by the Passover found in Torah.) So, forgiveness of sins is Yom Kippur, not Passover.

Chapter and verse about Yom Kippur!

 

[ananda]

Chapter and verse about Yom Kippur!

I'm not sure of what you are demanding, please clarify.

 

[JLB777]

Jeremiah 31:31-34 is the main prophecy regarding the coming of the New Covenant. In verse 34, we see that the conditions described there have not been fulfilled yet: we are still teaching one another, and not everyone knows YHWH. We are not in the period of the New Covenant.

If you don't know The Lord, and His Spirit does not lead you and teach you, then you are right, you probably are not "in" the new covenant.

However, that does not mean the new covenant has not come.

If you don't confess that Jesus Christ has come and fulfilled the passover, then for you the new covenant has not come.

However, for those of us who do accept and confess Jesus Christ as Lord, and are baptized and receive The Holy Spirit, we are partakers of this New Covenant!


Here are the words of The Lord -

For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Do you confess Jesus Christ as Lord [YHWH]?

Have you been baptized into Christ?

Have you been baptized with the Holy Spirit?


JLB

 

[JLB777]

I'm not sure of what you are demanding, please clarify.

Please show me in the scriptures where Yom Kippur is one of the feasts of The Lord.

 

[Pilgrimer]

As long as I "believe in Jesus," it's ok for me to break the 10 commandments, correct?

There's a bit more to New Covenant faith than you are implying in your rather flippant remark.

Those who are under the New Covenant don't follow the Law ... because we follow the Law Giver. Do you honestly believe the Law Giver will lead us into sin?!?

Following the Law Giver is much, much harder than following the Law. Because it requires that our hearts, you know, that place where sin originates, out hearts must be free from sinful thoughts and desires and motives, long before they work through our flesh to become sinful words, or deeds.

Under New Covenant faith it is not enough to obey the 10 commandments.

It is not enough to refrain from adultery. Our hearts must be so ruled by God's spirit of love for our spouse that even the thought of lusting for another is anathema!

Create in me, Oh God, a clean HEART!

It is not enough to refrain from stealing. Our hearts must be so ruled by God's spirit of love that our only thought is to give out of our own need to ease the suffering and want of others.

It is not enough to have no other gods before Him. We must have nothing before Him. Not life, or health, or wealth, or reputation, or pleasures, or ease, or friends, or wife, or husband, or children.

It is not enough that we rest from our own works on one day. We must continually abide in rest every day knowing that it is not us who does this wondrous, life-changing, soul-redeeming work that bears such holy fruit, it is the work of GOD, working in us, and working through us, the Law Giver personally present and working in our hearts to bring about His will and all His good pleasure.

Following the 10 commandments is not enough.

Create in me, Oh God, a clean heart!

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[ananda]

Here are the words of The Lord - For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The word "new", as your translation says it, is the Greek word καινῆς. This word is found in Mt 26:28, Mk 14:24, Lk 22:20, where Messiah is speaking of His blood. καινῆς is more accurately translated "renewed," not "new". If Messiah wanted to reference the brand-new covenant, He would have used the Greek word νέος instead.

Secondly "ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν", translated "remission of sins" in your translation, can be translated to mean "deliverance or release from missing the Way and Torah of Elohim", or more dynamically, "deliverance from the ways of the sinful world".

This would fit my understanding of what Messiah's Passover means: "This is My blood of the renewed covenant, which is shed for many for deliverance from the ways of the sinful world." We receive His blood when we enter His door/gate/house. As we enter His door, we are simultaneously leaving the world.

 

[ananda]

Please show me in the scriptures where Yom Kippur is one of the feasts of The Lord.

Lev 16:1-34, Lev 23:26-32, Num 29:7-11

 

[ananda]

There's a bit more to New Covenant faith than you are implying in your rather flippant remark. Those who are under the New Covenant don't follow the Law ... because we follow the Law Giver. Do you honestly believe the Law Giver will lead us into sin?!?

I follow the Law Giver, and the Law. "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." - 1Jn 2:6. How did Messiah walk? According to the Law, and perfectly. Do you disagree?

Following the Law Giver is much, much harder than following the Law. Because it requires that our hearts, you know, that place where sin originates, out hearts must be free from sinful thoughts and desires and motives, long before they work through our flesh to become sinful words, or deeds ... it is not enough to obey the 10 commandments.

You are apparently differentiating between Torah Law, and Messiah's Law. I don't see a difference ... What Messiah did was that He expounded the full, perfect meaning of Torah, the original intent of YHWH from the very beginning. We just didn't understand it.

 

[tzadik]

I follow the Law Giver, and the Law. "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." - 1Jn 2:6. How did Messiah walk? According to the Law, and perfectly. Do you disagree?

You are apparently differentiating between Torah Law, and Messiah's Law. I don't see a difference ... What Messiah did was that He expounded the full, perfect meaning of Torah, the original intent of YHWH from the very beginning. We just didn't understand it.

Amen and Amen!
I love it when someone saves me the trouble of answering, especially when the answer is pretty much word for word what I would answer!

Thanks Netz!

--
Not sure how it's possible for many to process the belief in their minds that...
God the Son came to 'make better' God the Father's Word/Standard of Righteousness/Holy Instructions/Way of Righteousness...

It's as if they believe in Messiah vs Hashem.

"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."
Case Closed.

 

[tzadik]

If you don't know The Lord, and His Spirit does not lead you and teach you, then you are right, you probably are not "in" the new covenant.

However, that does not mean the new covenant has not come.

If you don't confess that Jesus Christ has come and fulfilled the passover, then for you the new covenant has not come.

However, for those of us who do accept and confess Jesus Christ as Lord, and are baptized and receive The Holy Spirit, we are partakers of this New Covenant!


Here are the words of The Lord -

For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Do you confess Jesus Christ as Lord [YHWH]?

Have you been baptized into Christ?

Have you been baptized with the Holy Spirit?


JLB

I don't think you're understanding what Netz is saying here.

It's a pretty simple concept.
Jeremiah 31:34 says: "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Do you believe this is the case in the world we live in today?
Here I'll answer for you...OF COURSE NOT!

The fact that this FORUM exists, (aka people trying to teach one another about the Lord) is enough proof that verse 34 of Jeremiah 31 has NOT YET COME TO PASS!!

No need to try and explain it away with a string of words.
It's not here yet.

It will come.
In those days. But not yet.
The End.

 

[tzadik]

There's a bit more to New Covenant faith than you are implying in your rather flippant remark.

Those who are under the New Covenant don't follow the Law ... because we follow the Law Giver. Do you honestly believe the Law Giver will lead us into sin?!?

Following the Law Giver is much, much harder than following the Law. Because it requires that our hearts, you know, that place where sin originates, out hearts must be free from sinful thoughts and desires and motives, long before they work through our flesh to become sinful words, or deeds.

Under New Covenant faith it is not enough to obey the 10 commandments.

It is not enough to refrain from adultery. Our hearts must be so ruled by God's spirit of love for our spouse that even the thought of lusting for another is anathema!

Create in me, Oh God, a clean HEART!

It is not enough to refrain from stealing. Our hearts must be so ruled by God's spirit of love that our only thought is to give out of our own need to ease the suffering and want of others.

It is not enough to have no other gods before Him. We must have nothing before Him. Not life, or health, or wealth, or reputation, or pleasures, or ease, or friends, or wife, or husband, or children.

It is not enough that we rest from our own works on one day. We must continually abide in rest every day knowing that it is not us who does this wondrous, life-changing, soul-redeeming work that bears such holy fruit, it is the work of GOD, working in us, and working through us, the Law Giver personally present and working in our hearts to bring about His will and all His good pleasure.

Following the 10 commandments is not enough.

Create in me, Oh God, a clean heart!

In Christ,
Deborah

Let me get this straight...
What you are saying that when God gave His Torah to His people, it was to be a standard of OUTWARD RIGHTEOUSNESS alone?

So you believe that God gave His people His Instructions, so that they can be outwardly obedient, but not necessarily inwardly obedient and spiritually changed?

It's as if you regard the HOLY LAW OF GOD as a simple document, or scroll, or slab of rock~

and not the SPIRITUAL, HOLY and LIVING WORD OF GOD!

(correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[JLB777]

Lev 16:1-34, Lev 23:26-32, Num 29:7-11

Yom Kippur does not appear anywhere in these scriptures!

Doctrine of Man!

As all of what you post is!

 

[JLB777]

Let me get this straight...
What you are saying that when God gave His Torah to His people, it was to be a standard of OUTWARD RIGHTEOUSNESS alone?

So you believe that God gave His people His Instructions, so that they can be outwardly obedient, but not necessarily inwardly obedient and spiritually changed?

It's as if you regard the HOLY LAW OF GOD as a simple document, or scroll, or slab of rock~

and not the SPIRITUAL, HOLY and LIVING WORD OF GOD!

(correct me if I'm wrong)

I correct you.


Your WRONG!

 

[tzadik]

Yom Kippur does not appear anywhere in these scriptures!

Doctrine of Man!

As all of what you post is!

wow.

You just threw out any credibility you had by the above post.
Do you read any Hebrew or perhaps own a Concordance?

 

[tzadik]

I correct you.


Your WRONG!

lol.
classy.

"correct me if I'm wrong" means tell me what you disagree with...or what you actually believe...

 

[ananda]

Amen and Amen!
I love it when someone saves me the trouble of answering, especially when the answer is pretty much word for word what I would answer! Thanks Netz!

--
Not sure how it's possible for many to process the belief in their minds that... God the Son came to 'make better' God the Father's Word/Standard of Righteousness/Holy Instructions/Way of Righteousness... It's as if they believe in Messiah vs Hashem. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."
Case Closed.

Amein!

 

[JLB777]

I don't think you're understanding what Netz is saying here.

It's a pretty simple concept.
Jeremiah 31:34 says: "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Do you believe this is the case in the world we live in today?
Here I'll answer for you...OF COURSE NOT!

The fact that this FORUM exists, (aka people trying to teach one another about the Lord) is enough proof that verse 34 of Jeremiah 31 has NOT YET COME TO PASS!!

No need to try and explain it away with a string of words.
It's not here yet.

It will come.
In those days. But not yet.
The End.

How presumptuous your are to assume such a foolish thing, that because this forum exist's is proof.

You who are not aware that the New Covenant has been in effect for over 2000 years are being taught by others who are IN the new covenat.

Just because you don't understand, does not mean the New Covenant is not here!!!

HERE THE WORD OF THE LORD FROM THE APOSTLE JOHN -

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27

the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you

you do not need that anyone teach you;


IT DOESN'T GET ANY CLEARER THAN THAT!!!!

YOU DO NOT NEED THAT ANYONE TEACH YOU!!!!


CHECKMATE !


The Word of God has discovered your condition!

Repent therefore and be converted! Or you will likewise perish!


JLB

 

[ananda]

Yom Kippur does not appear anywhere in these scriptures! Doctrine of Man! As all of what you post is!

אך בעשור לחדש השביעי הזה יום הכפרים הוא מקרא־קדש יהיה לכם ועניתם את־נפשתיכם והקרבתם אשה ליהוה׃ - Lev 23:27

There it is in black and white. Yom Kippur.

Are you calling this verse a "doctrine of man"?

 

[Pilgrimer]

The word "new", as your translation says it, is the Greek word καινῆς. This word is found in Mt 26:28, Mk 14:24, Lk 22:20, where Messiah is speaking of His blood. καινῆς is more accurately translated "renewed," not "new". If Messiah wanted to reference the brand-new covenant, He would have used the Greek word νέος instead.

That is not correct. The Greek word "kainos" means new: in the sense of form it means recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn, and in the sense of substance it means of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of.

The Greek word for renew is "anakainizo" which means to renew or renovate.

Throughout the New Testament the only word that is used to refer to the New Covenant is kainos, new.

Secondly "ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν", translated "remission of sins" in your translation, can be translated to mean "deliverance or release from missing the Way and Torah of Elohim", or more dynamically, "deliverance from the ways of the sinful world".

This would fit my understanding of what Messiah's Passover means: "This is My blood of the renewed covenant, which is shed for many for deliverance from the ways of the sinful world." We receive His blood when we enter His door/gate/house. As we enter His door, we are simultaneously leaving the world.

You are of course free to interpret Scripture in any way that you feel will accommodate it to your views, but you should at least be aware that this interpretation, that the blood of the New Covenant does not provide "remission" in the sense of forgiveness of sin, undermines your earlier statement in note #261 wherein you stated: "We sin in our daily lives, and we receive Messiah's atonement when we repent of that sin."

Are you now going to argue that atonement does not remit sin?

But also, your understanding of the Passover is drastically different than mine. I don't recall people "leaving the world" and "entering the doors" of Jewish homes where the blood was applied in order to escape "the ways of the sinful world." That is a strange doctrine to my way of thinking. The way I understand Passover is that the Jewish people applied the blood to their doors so the death angel would pass them over and not slay their firstborn.

Now the way I understand that to be fulfilled is that in the same way that those Jews whose dwellings bore the sign of the blood of the lamb were protected from God's judgment upon the Egyptians, so too those under the New Covenant who bear the sign of the blood of the Lamb will also be protected from death in the day of judgment at the end of the world.

I think this makes much more sense of the Passover and how it foreshadowed Jesus as "the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world," that by his death our sins are forgiven, and in the day of judgment those who are covered by his blood will be saved from God's wrath and destruction.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

P.S. The word atonement, kaphar, means to "cover over."

 

[ananda]

How presumptuous your are to assume such a foolish thing, that because this forum exist's is proof. But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, andyou do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27 the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you you do not need that anyone teach you; IT DOESN'T GET ANY CLEARER THAN THAT!!!! YOU DO NOT NEED THAT ANYONE TEACH YOU!!!! CHECKMATE ! The Word of God has discovered your condition! Repent therefore and be converted! Or you will likewise perish! JLB

Jeremiah 31:34 is referring to the New Covenant when no man will need to teach unbelievers to know YHWH. 1Jn 2:27 is referring to believers, not unbelievers. Two different issues.