Merits of Christianity if supernatural claims are false

[FireDragon76]

How many people died from syphilis between 1900 and 1950?

It was the AIDS of its day:

The AIDS Of The Early 20th Century

I watched a documentary about the Tuskeegee Experiments one time. I also have seen a few movies about the period. It was as scary as AIDS. The US government had to change their tunes about condoms because so many soldiers were getting diseases from wars.

People were not all good little christians back then.

 

[com7fy8]

Buddhism clearly has a lot of merit.

There is a big difference between doing what is self dependent and what is depending on God.

For a person who doesn't believe in Christianity's supernatural claims is there any merit to the religion?

I would say yes. Jesus did give things which are practical and good.

For one example, forgiving is well known among counselors and self-help people, for doing good to the person who is forgiving. But a person on one's own can lack strength against being hurt, later. But in Jesus we can grow to how wrong people do not have power over us, and with Jesus we can manage how we will react to and be effected by wrong people. We are not just on the defensive! Love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7) > we have hope for the wrong people . . . and for ourselves

 

[HTacianas]

It was the AIDS of its day:

The AIDS Of The Early 20th Century

I watched a documentary about the Tuskeegee Experiments one time. I also have seen a few movies about the period. It was as scary as AIDS. The US government had to change their tunes about condoms because so many soldiers were getting diseases from wars.

People were not all good little christians back then.

You are still not convincing me. Because sexuality transmitted diseases existed prior to 1950 does not negate the increase in the prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases after 1950.

And you are ignoring all the other ills of society brought on by sexual promiscuity. That promiscuity is directly related to American society's abandoning the teachings of Christianity.

 

[miamited]

If you are a Christian think about how you feel about Islam or Buddhism. Probably you think Muhammad and Buddha were well-intentioned, charismatic, ingenious, ... but you don't think they had a special calling from God or that their supernatural claims were true.

So apply that same thinking to Jesus and Christianity. Would Christianity have merit relative to other world religions if the supernatural claims were false? Buddhism clearly has a lot of merit. Secular people often study Buddhism for its psychological insights or practice meditation for its health benefits.

I suppose there is some merit to believing something that can give your life a purpose - even if you are believing something false. Even Scientology has some merit by that measure.

For a person who doesn't believe in Christianity's supernatural claims is there any merit to the religion?

Hi cloudyday,

None whatsoever...unless the claims turn out to be true. You'll just have to wait and see.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Zoness]

You are still not convincing me. Because sexuality transmitted diseases existed prior to 1950 does not negate the increase in the prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases after 1950.

And you are ignoring all the other ills of society brought on by sexual promiscuity. That promiscuity is directly related to American society's abandoning the teachings of Christianity.

Well we advanced rights for all marginalized groups by quite a bit. STDs are largely treatable and even HIV cures are coming close in range now and will be on the market in single-digit years. Even if that wasn't true, its went from a death sentence to a very manageable condition thanks to science and medicine. Women now have freedom to pursue careers and lives of their own independent of men. The public approval of mistreating gays and sexual minorities has declined substantially. If we're just picking some metrics to go by, I'd say we're getting along quite well. We need to keep at it, though.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Take the supernatural out of Christianity and all you have is another dead religion.

 

[Rajni]

It's my understanding that Buddha had a serpent talk to him: Mucalinda - Wikipedia. And that is strange to a Christian probably.

Eve had a serpent talk to her, so the concept probably
shouldn't seem too far-fetched in a Christian context.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Take the supernatural out of Christianity and all you have is another dead religion.

That's is a pretty low view of the teaching of Jesus. 'Love your enemies' is not dismissed so easily.

 

[cloudyday2]

That's is a pretty low view of the teaching of Jesus. 'Love your enemies' is not dismissed so easily.

I would argue that "love your enemies" arises much more obviously from atheism than from Christianity. Much of the hatred of enemies is justified by believing that they CHOSE to be our enemies. Atheism and neurology suggests that freewill is more of a perception than a reality. When someone is my enemy I can simply remind myself that he or she is ultimately only a puppet just as I am only a puppet. It is the puppet master who deserves are hatred - i.e. God. An atheist doesn't believe in God, so there is nobody to hate really.

 

[cloudyday2]

Look to a society that follows the teachings of Christianity and then compare it to a society that doesn't. That's rather easy for us to do by looking at the changes in American society over the last one hundred years.

I like your sociological approach, because there is some data we could work with to prove it or disprove it. The claim about the superiority of Christian societies may or may not be true, but there is a deeper question. Would a Christian society be superior if the "Christians" did NOT believe in the supernatural claims? Would Christians be socially superior if they thought Jesus was just some sort of first century Oprah Winfrey?

 

[cloudyday2]

I'm not sure, but I am inclined to say no. It has some nice maxims but most of them can be found in other religious and secular philosophy as well and many of them are tied to ancient Jewish law.

If you strip away the supernatural claims, what unique and positive ideals are you left with, in your opinion?

As my faith in the Jewish and Christian supernatural claims has withered over the last several years I have begun to feel that there is nothing of value in Christianity. The "wisdom" of the sayings of Jesus seems kind of shallow or hyperbolic or even archaic. I just can't read a page from the Bible now without being angry at myself for trying to believe for so long.

To clarify, I am dismayed when I try to read the Bible that the wisdom I previously saw has withered along with my faith in the supernatural claims of the Bible. It seems that the Bible unlike some other religious texts is lacking in secular wisdom.

 

[cloudyday2]

Yes.
For me the take-away of Christianity is that people are worthy of forgiveness and we should look out for those of us who are less fortunate. Of course, these ideas aren't exclusive to any religion and I find they are usually drowned out by things like, blame, judgement, and which group of people should be ostracized.

I agree with you somewhat, but I thought it was worthwhile to point-out this quote from St. Paul (Romans 12:20):

To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 12:20 - English Standard Version

I am sure that verse is rationalized in various ways by modern theologians, but at face-value it seems to suggest that the forgiveness of Christians is merely an investment to reap an even greater revenge as the Christian victims see their enemies punished much more severely by God after the Second Coming of Jesus.

Here is another example (Revelation 6:9-11):

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 6:9-11 - English Standard Version

IMO, that isn't truly loving your enemies. Loving your enemies means empathizing with your enemies so that punishment of him/her is like punishment of yourself and blessing him/her is like blessing yourself. It shouldn't be about deferring your vengeance to get a more severe punishment or to let God do your dirty work for you.

 

[Anto9us]

I don't want to heap burning coals on the head of anyone; nor do I go around considering anyone a personal "enemy".

 

[Anto9us]

There is always a matter of DEGREE in biblical statements about supernatural claims.

I doubt if anyone today really thinks that THE SUN STOOD STILL when Joshua commanded it to do so, because we know the sun does not revolve around the earth, but the other way around.

So, ok, maybe both the earth and sun both just went along with things, realizing Joshua had a misinformed cosmology -- did that mean the EARTH stood still, then?

The whole purpose in this daylight savings time was to give more daylight-time to the Israelites while they mopped up on the Amorites, an uncomfortable spiritual position all the way around.

In some passages, if things are taken more figuratively than literal, there is "less supernatural" to be concerned with, but the line between how figurative or literal to take things, imo, is hard to pin down -- from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[awitch]

I am sure that verse is rationalized in various ways by modern theologians, but at face-value it seems to suggest that the forgiveness of Christians is merely an investment to reap an even greater revenge as the Christian victims see their enemies punished much more severely by God after the Second Coming of Jesus.

I was referring to the Jesus narrative; he can forgive you regardless of what you've done. If god can do it, then we humans should make a best attempt to forgive, too. But again, it gets lost in the details.

 

[dlamberth]

For a person who doesn't believe in Christianity's supernatural claims is there any merit to the religion?

I'm of the mind that extravagant religious claims is not God or Truth.

 

[Chesterton]

When someone is my enemy I can simply remind myself that he or she is ultimately only a puppet just as I am only a puppet.

Wow, kudos. You just solved every problem in the world ever.

 

[Albion]

If you are a Christian think about how you feel about Islam or Buddhism. Probably you think Muhammad and Buddha were well-intentioned, charismatic, ingenious, ... but you don't think they had a special calling from God or that their supernatural claims were true.

I cannot agree with that concession.

So apply that same thinking to Jesus and Christianity. Would Christianity have merit relative to other world religions if the supernatural claims were false? Buddhism clearly has a lot of merit.

By any standard, Christianity has done more for humanity, been more focused on personal rights, fostered more liberty, mutual respect, and etc. than any other.

Secular people often study Buddhism for its psychological insights or practice meditation for its health benefits.

That's about it.

For a person who doesn't believe in Christianity's supernatural claims is there any merit to the religion?

Your very ability to keep yourself apart from organized religion while suffering minimal negative consequences because of that choice is something you owe to the influence of Christianity. That should answer the question.

 

[cloudyday2]

By any standard, Christianity has done more for humanity, been more focused on personal rights, fostered more liberty, mutual respect, and etc. than any other.

I think actually Christianity is being given credit for ideas from the thinkers of the Enlightenment. The freedom of religion in the US Constitution owes itself to Freemasonry, and I believe that came from the Enlightenment. Some of the ideas of the Enlightenment came from Christians and some of them came from Christian-schismatics and some from atheists too.
EDIT: I forgot to mention Jewish thinkers in my list. There were probably more Jews than atheists at that time.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I was referring to the Jesus narrative; he can forgive you regardless of what you've done. If god can do it, then we humans should make a best attempt to forgive, too. But again, it gets lost in the details.

Why do we need to be forgiven? For what