Merits of Christianity if supernatural claims are false

[dlamberth]

The love Christ taught was God's love for humanity in sending him. The type of generalized, depersonalized love you are talking about can be believed by anyone independent of Christ or the Christianity.

Well, all I know is that Christ spent a lot of time directing us to love each other. When seeing Christ in others and even in Nature, it becomes a lot easier to do.

What does it mean to experience Christ at the centre as a mystical thing? If Christ didn't demonstrate a miraculous nature, if he is not truly God, you aren't experiencing Christ, you are experiencing something else.

The way I understand it is that if I don't see and experience Christ everywhere I look, God isn't much of a reality for me.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Well, all I know is that Christ spent a lot of time directing us to love each other. When seeing Christ in others and even in Nature, it becomes a lot easier to do.

That love has it's foundation in Christ and his actions, namely as the one who saves us from our sins. The son of man came to seek and save the lost, not teach us how to love and respect each other.

The way I understand it is that if I don't see and experience Christ everywhere I look, God isn't much of a reality for me.

Jesus Christ is not a concept of being but a historical person.

 

[dlamberth]

Jesus Christ is not a concept of being but a historical person.

We are in agreement that it would be a different Christianity, but I still say that in no way would it be meaningless. Yes, it would be a different image of Christ, but one that I think would be fuller in it's breath, depth and vibrancy with in Life itSelf.

 

[cloudyday2]

Not the same, that is about vacation, Sweden, Denmark and
Norway have five weeks.

What I was on about was,
Christian days of recognition, like Christmas, thirteenth day after, Easter, day of ascension, pentecost etc.

all of which are paid fully, if one must work, double pay.

One day has been taken away, the second day of pentecost,
it has been moved to June and called National day, which of course was a flopp.

Point being, is Sweden to be regarded as a Christian country?

The chances are less than slim that other religions would get a day off even without pay.

Buisness is buisness, there are delivery dates to be kept.

I wonder what would happen if you had to bring vouchers to your employer showing attendance at a church on those holidays to get your pay?

 

[Robban]

I wonder what would happen if you had to bring vouchers to your employer showing attendance at a church on those holidays to get your pay?

No, it would not be in a spirit of goodwill.

There would be a risk for conflict, freezing out of some and so on.
To be marked as "Religious" is something to be avoided.

As long as traditions are kept alive, things run pretty smoothly.

To say religious is like saying extreme, radical.

Just don,t rock the boat, haha.

 

[Petros2015]

Tolstoy expounded on this; he did not feel there was supernatural support, didn't really believe in miracles, but did believe that Christ's central message was this and that he was sent from God

Matthew 5:39

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also

From this he considered all of Christ's commandments; do not judge (a world without courts), and others from the sermon on the mount. He performed detailed biblical studies of the Gospels. He came to a very pacifist calling. He corresponded with Gandhi and influenced him.

Gandhi then adopted civil non violent disobedience and overthrew England's control of India.

lol.

So, it's pretty interesting. Tolstoy's book is below; it explores the central question of what the world would be like if Christians followed Christ's commandments... I do not agree with all of it; for example he seems to feel that Christians are called to do this 'by their own unaided strength' as though prayer was not to any effect. But, a lot of this is amazing and it is one of my favorite books.

LibriVox

 

[cloudyday2]

No, it would not be in a spirit of goodwill.

There would be a risk for conflict, freezing out of some and so on.
To be marked as "Religious" is something to be avoided.

As long as traditions are kept alive, things run pretty smoothly.

To say religious is like saying extreme, radical.

Just don,t rock the boat, haha.

Or here is another idea to rock the Swedish boat. Imagine if the GOVERNMENT paid everybody for their holidays rather than the employers. I have noticed in the US that politicians often expect employers to turn their written mandates into reality and pay the cost. Health insurance is a prime example, but there are many others.

(Don't get me started on jury duty. The government pays people about $5 per DAY for their time. The government only pays a pittance for their jurors, so they don't care how much time the process takes while their jurors fidget in their chairs for hours or days or weeks. Somebody pays the cost for that wasted time - either the unlucky jurors themselves or the unlucky employers who pay for jury duty.)

 

[Robban]

Or here is another idea to rock the Swedish boat. Imagine if the GOVERNMENT paid everybody for their holidays rather than the employers. I have noticed in the US that politicians often expect employers to turn their written mandates into reality and pay the cost. Health insurance is a prime example, but there are many others.

(Don't get me started on jury duty. The government pays people about $5 per DAY for their time. The government only pays a pittance for their jurors, so they don't care how much time the process takes while their jurors fidget in their chairs for hours or days or weeks. Somebody pays the cost for that wasted time - either the unlucky jurors themselves or the unlucky employers who pay for jury duty.)

It is not all fine and dandy on the Swedish job market.

Far from it, compared to 20-30 years ago and further back still, say the sixties.

In fact it is not a shadow of what it once was.

Before, one did not become a millionaire but,
one had a steady job, there was more structure in the everyday,
One knew what one had, but today it is far from certain
if one will have a job tomorrow.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

For a person who doesn't believe in Christianity's supernatural claims is there any merit to the religion?

The Bible as a whole cannot be overestimated as a piece of world literature: its scope and influence upon European art, culture, and literature is paralleled by no other text.
As for specifically Christian merits, i.e. stuff limited to that branch of the Abrahamic faiths: I consider the biblical Jesus's pacifism and social activism to be a very positive influence, albeit one that is all but ignored by his most vocal, GOP-voting, Trump-supporting believers.

 

[Robban]

Or here is another idea to rock the Swedish boat. Imagine if the GOVERNMENT paid everybody for their holidays rather than the employers. I have noticed in the US that politicians often expect employers to turn their written mandates into reality and pay the cost. Health insurance is a prime example, but there are many others.

(Don't get me started on jury duty. The government pays people about $5 per DAY for their time. The government only pays a pittance for their jurors, so they don't care how much time the process takes while their jurors fidget in their chairs for hours or days or weeks. Somebody pays the cost for that wasted time - either the unlucky jurors themselves or the unlucky employers who pay for jury duty.)

That is strange, if the government pay government employees, surely then if you are ordered to sit on a jury,

you are serving the government during that time,
therefore it should be the governments responsability to compensate you for loss of earnings.

Surely.

 

[cloudyday2]

That is strange, if the government pay government employees, surely then if you are ordered to sit on a jury,

you are serving the government during that time,
therefore it should be the governments responsability to compensate you for loss of earnings.

Surely.

People who work for government, banks, and large corporations usually get paid by their employer for jury duty. The courts don't pay anybody for serving on a jury or supplying documents or testifying (excepting expert witnesses I suppose). ... Revealingly, people who work for the courts or the legislature are exempt from jury duty, but all the rest of us ordinary folk must listen to hours of pep-talks telling us how wonderful jury duty can be.

I am certain that if the courts had to pay each employee for lost time then they would find a way to waste less of it.

 

[Robban]

.

 

[Robban]

People who work for government, banks, and large corporations usually get paid by their employer for jury duty. The courts don't pay anybody for serving on a jury or supplying documents or testifying (excepting expert witnesses I suppose). ... Revealingly, people who work for the courts or the legislature are exempt from jury duty, but all the rest of us ordinary folk must listen to hours of pep-talks telling us how wonderful jury duty can be.

I am certain that if the courts had to pay each employee for lost time then they would find a way to waste less of it.

Crappy system.

 

[Rubiks]

You don't have to hold to inerrancy or accept everything in the Bible to be literally true to be a Christian.

In my experience, plenty of atheists claim to be Buddhists but reject Buddhist cosmology.

 

[cloudyday2]

You don't have to hold to inerrancy or accept everything in the Bible to be literally true to be a Christian.

In my experience, plenty of atheists claim to be Buddhists but reject Buddhist cosmology.

Both those are true, but how many atheists claim to be Christians while rejecting the idea that Jesus was more than just a Jewish holy man? There is "Progressive Christianity" that includes atheists, but there are not too many of these people compared to the atheists claiming to be Buddhists.

 

[dlamberth]

You don't have to hold to inerrancy or accept everything in the Bible to be literally true to be a Christian.

In my experience, plenty of atheists claim to be Buddhists but reject Buddhist cosmology.

There are plenty of Christian/Buddhist out there too. Or should that be Buddhist/Christians?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

You don't have to hold to inerrancy or accept everything in the Bible to be literally true to be a Christian.

In my experience, plenty of atheists claim to be Buddhists but reject Buddhist cosmology.

Bzddhism isn't necessarily theistic, but I guess that was not the point.
I do find that Buddhism's "core ideas" about the nature of the psyche/self as a construct, the relationship between suffering and false expectation, and - last but not least - meditation techniques can be easily harmonised with a 21st century perspective grounded in the natural sciences.
Christianity, though? What exactly could we keep once we discard the iron age cosmology of angry gods and sacrifices made to appease them? The Golden Rule? Pacifism?
Make no mistake: I acknowledge Christianity's vast contributions to European culture. But as an analogy, you won't see me sacrificing bulls to Poseidon just because Graeco-Roman mythology is another huge influence on culture and the arts.

 

[Carbon]

Purify Christianity of all it’s miracles and you do still have a compelling underdog story plus loads of rich allegory.

On the other hand you lose the most valuable insight of religion which is that we have to believe stuff we know isn’t true.