Merits of Christianity if supernatural claims are false

[awitch]

Why do we need to be forgiven? For what

Typical daily transgressions and grudges. Nothing on the scale of the species as Christianity would suggest.

 

[com7fy8]

Would a Christian society be superior if the "Christians" did NOT believe in the supernatural claims?

It could be superior if the "Christians" were not going around raiding others, like I am told the Vikings and Genghis Khan could do . . . coming in, killing everyone, taking whatever they pleased.

On the other hand, there might be "Christians" who felt they were advanced in civilization in a way which justified invading Native American territories, and killing native Americans in order to settle on their lands. Or, ones might feel they are superior to Africans, and have raids with killing and kidnapping in order to have slaves. However, Cloudy, I would say ones capable of this could do this, with or without using the Bible to claim authority for this.

So, in any case, I would not judge the Bible by how certain "Christians" use it. Our own character has a lot to do with how we see things and how we understand the Bible and other people. I guess we could say, then, that your character will have a lot to do with how you see the Bible and Christianity - - with or without supernatural claims.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That's is a pretty low view of the teaching of Jesus. 'Love your enemies' is not dismissed so easily.

We can't ignore that Jesus went around doing good, healing all those who were oppressed by the devil, as it says in Acts. His ministry wasn't just religious words, like many churches today, but He showed by His works that His teaching had meaning and purpose. He said that we would do the works that He did (healing, casting out demons, cleansing the lepers, raising the dead, getting souls saved), but somehow we have ignored what He said, and have substituted barren religious words and practices instead.

 

[Albion]

I think actually Christianity is being given credit for ideas from the thinkers of the Enlightenment.

Many people would say that, but the Enlightenment was made possible only within the framework of a civilization that was created and shaped by Christianity. What other of the worlds great religious systems can compare when this is the issue? Not Islam, that's for sure. Not Buddhism or Hinduism, even if we give them due credit for their spirituality, etc. An you need to bear in mind that not all of the desirable characteristics that we are thinking of here owe to the Enlightenment. Many owe to developments that come earlier on in Western Civilization--representative government, property rights, contractural rights and obligations, and so on.

 

[cloudyday2]

So, in any case, I would not judge the Bible by how certain "Christians" use it. Our own character has a lot to do with how we see things and how we understand the Bible and other people. I guess we could say, then, that your character will have a lot to do with how you see the Bible and Christianity - - with or without supernatural claims.

I wonder about taking that a step further and saying that our character might be the most important ingredient in our behavior - with or without Christianity? Of course Christianity sometimes improves the character of its believers. Maybe it is Christianity acting on the individual and that individual shaping society rather than Christianity directly shaping society?

 

[cloudyday2]

Many people would say that, but the Enlightenment was made possible only within the framework of a civilization that was created and shaped by Christianity.

I'm trying to think of an example where Christianity was the unique factor that made the Enlightenment happen. The silver coming back from the New World probably created newly wealthy aristocrats who could invest in academic pursuits.

The reconquest of Spain and Portugal from the Muslims gave access to a lot of classical knowledge preserved by the Muslims as well as knowledge added by Muslims.

I think the same thing would have happened if European culture had been based on many other religions. Certainly Islam could have worked IMO.

 

[Albion]

I'm trying to think of an example where Christianity was the unique factor that made the Enlightenment happen. The silver coming back from the New World probably created newly wealthy aristocrats who could invest in academic pursuits.

The reconquest of Spain and Portugal from the Muslims gave access to a lot of classical knowledge preserved by the Muslims as well as knowledge added by Muslims.

I think the same thing would have happened if European culture had been based on many other religions. Certainly Islam could have worked IMO.

Maybe. Possibly. But they did not happen under any other religion; and where the others had their places on the planet, nothing comparable occurred.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If Jesus didn't physically raise from the dead there is no merit to Christianity there is no merit to Christianity. If the one foundation is flawed the entire structure upon which it rests collapses and Christianity becomes meaningless.

 

[dlamberth]

If Jesus didn't physically raise from the dead there is no merit to Christianity there is no merit to Christianity. If the one foundation is flawed the entire structure upon which it rests collapses and Christianity becomes meaningless.

It would be a different Christianity, but in no way meaningless. Just a different image of Christ, one I suspect that would be more Cosmic and mystical in it's reach into the ground of being.

 

[Robban]

If you are a Christian think about how you feel about Islam or Buddhism. Probably you think Muhammad and Buddha were well-intentioned, charismatic, ingenious, ... but you don't think they had a special calling from God or that their supernatural claims were true.

So apply that same thinking to Jesus and Christianity. Would Christianity have merit relative to other world religions if the supernatural claims were false? Buddhism clearly has a lot of merit. Secular people often study Buddhism for its psychological insights or practice meditation for its health benefits.

I suppose there is some merit to believing something that can give your life a purpose - even if you are believing something false. Even Scientology has some merit by that measure.

For a person who doesn't believe in Christianity's supernatural claims is there any merit to the religion?

No need to believe in Chistianity to draw benifit from it.
How so?

Sweden for example, all Christian holdays are public holidays, even thirteenth day after Christmas,

ascension day.
All have days off from work with fulll pay, whoever they are.

Now think of all the employers who have to pay wages and
nothing produced.

Not so long ago when Sweden was an industry nation with large companies, big factories, shipyards and so on.

The sum of all these wages (nothing produced)over a year was and maybe still is, astronomical.

I do not think so many think of it so much,

 

[cloudyday2]

No need to believe in Chistianity to draw benifit from it.
How so?

Sweden for example, all Christian holdays are public holidays, even thirteenth day after Christmas,

ascension day.
All have days off from work with fulll pay, whoever they are.

Now think of all the employers who have to pay wages and
nothing produced.

Not so long ago when Sweden was an industry nation with large companies, big factories, shipyards and so on.

The sum of all these wages (nothing produced)over a year was and maybe still is, astronomical.

I do not think so many think of it so much,

But there might be other religions with even MORE paid holidays.
Here is a link I found and a summary:
- Hinduism 39 holidays
- Judaism 33 holidays
- Sikhism 26 holidays
- Christianity 12 holidays
These Religions Celebrate the Most Holidays

 

[Robban]

But there might be other religions with even MORE paid holidays.
Here is a link I found and a summary:
- Hinduism 39 holidays
- Judaism 33 holidays
- Sikhism 26 holidays
- Christianity 12 holidays
These Religions Celebrate the Most Holidays

Holidays yes, but paid?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It would be a different Christianity, but in no way meaningless. Just a different image of Christ, one I suspect that would be more Cosmic and mystical in it's reach into the ground of being.

You're talking about Gnosticism which isn't Christianity.

 

[dlamberth]

You're talking about Gnosticism which isn't Christianity.

It would be a different kind of Christianity with Christ still at the center of being.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It would be a different kind of Christianity with Christ still at the center of being.

No, it would be an esoteric religion with literally anything at it's center. Jesus might be important but he would not be essential since it would not be the action of Christ that redeems us, but the teachings of Christ which could be taught or comprehended by anyone.

The gospel makes no sense if you take away Christ's miracles, especially his resurrection.

 

[cloudyday2]

Holidays yes, but paid?

Here is a table showing how many paid holidays each nation requires from employers. Notice the US has zero LOL
List of minimum annual leave by country - Wikipedia

 

[Robban]

Here is a table showing how many paid holidays each nation requires from employers. Notice the US has zero LOL
List of minimum annual leave by country - Wikipedia

Not the same, that is about vacation, Sweden, Denmark and
Norway have five weeks.

What I was on about was,
Christian days of recognition, like Christmas, thirteenth day after, Easter, day of ascension, pentecost etc.

all of which are paid fully, if one must work, double pay.

One day has been taken away, the second day of pentecost,
it has been moved to June and called National day, which of course was a flopp.

Point being, is Sweden to be regarded as a Christian country?

The chances are less than slim that other religions would get a day off even without pay.

Buisness is buisness, there are delivery dates to be kept.

 

[dlamberth]

No, it would be an esoteric religion with literally anything at it's center. Jesus might be important but he would not be essential since it would not be the action of Christ that redeems us, but the teachings of Christ which could be taught or comprehended by anyone.

The gospel makes no sense if you take away Christ's miracles, especially his resurrection.

The main teachings of Christ is Love. Religion has made it something else. Often Love is hard to comprehend. With Christ being experienced as the center of everything is a mystical sort of thing. And that's something that personally I believe Christianity could have more of.

 

[Robban]

Here is a table showing how many paid holidays each nation requires from employers. Notice the US has zero LOL
List of minimum annual leave by country - Wikipedia

As long as they keep their ideas over there, but they don,t.

We saw that when GM took over Saab.

Now Saab has gone.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The main teachings of Christ is Love. Religion has made it something else. Often Love is hard to comprehend. With Christ being experienced as the center of everything is a mystical sort of thing. And that's something that personally I believe Christianity could have more of.

The love Christ taught was God's love for humanity in sending him. The type of generalized, depersonalized love you are talking about can be believed by anyone independent of Christ or the Christianity.

What does it mean to experience Christ at the centre as a mystical thing? If Christ didn't demonstrate a miraculous nature, if he is not truly God, you aren't experiencing Christ, you are experiencing something else.