(Mental) illness, upbringing and sin

HatGuy

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As we've progressed with the "science" of psychology, it seems we may have realised a great deal of sinful action is the result of some form of mental illness in human beings. Some people have chemical imbalances, but others appear to do what they do due to issues related in their upbringing, a tragedy that happened to them, or something that hurt them. (I frame all this under 'illness' here). Either way, people do sinful things because something has affected them.

However, is this view of sin biblical? Is there space to explore this within a biblical framework? Or is this idea merely a human construct designed to make excuses for us? And if so, how do we stop doing the things we perhaps even don't want to do but feel compelled to do?

I think this is an interesting and relevant discussion for today.
 
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BryanJohnMaloney

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As we've progressed with the "science" of psychology, it seems we may have realised a great deal of sinful action is the result of some form of mental illness in human beings. Some people have chemical imbalances, but others appear to do what they do due to issues related in their upbringing, a tragedy that happened to them, or something that hurt them. (I frame all this under 'illness' here). Either way, people do sinful things because something has affected them.

However, is this view of sin biblical? Is there space to explore this within a biblical framework? Or is this idea merely a human construct designed to make excuses for us? And if so, how do we stop doing the things we perhaps even don't want to do but feel compelled to do?

What is unbliblical is the heretical concept that sin is some kind of "rebellion" or "crime". Scripture mentions unintentional sin multiple times.

The words that are translated as "sin" from Hebrew do include "pesha" (rebelliousness) or "avone" (iniquity), but the most common word is "hata" (going astray). In Greek, the word most commonly translated as "sin" is "hamartia" (missing the mark). It is possible to go astray or miss the mark without conspiring to, without choosing to.

That a sin may be due to mental illness doesn't make it not a sin, it merely means that it isn't "pesha" or "avone", but it is still "hata".

The problem is that the legalism-infested West has decided that "sin" can only apply to "pesha" and "avone" and uses lack of intent as a get-out-of-jail-free card for sin. Then, when someone has a concept that contradicts hardcore dogmatic legalism, that concept is denounced.
 
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Dave L

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As we've progressed with the "science" of psychology, it seems we may have realised a great deal of sinful action is the result of some form of mental illness in human beings. Some people have chemical imbalances, but others appear to do what they do due to issues related in their upbringing, a tragedy that happened to them, or something that hurt them. (I frame all this under 'illness' here). Either way, people do sinful things because something has affected them.

However, is this view of sin biblical? Is there space to explore this within a biblical framework? Or is this idea merely a human construct designed to make excuses for us? And if so, how do we stop doing the things we perhaps even don't want to do but feel compelled to do?

I think this is an interesting and relevant discussion for today.
Einstein on Free Will (This corresponds to your post.)

“Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect, as well as for the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper.” [Einstein: The Life and Times, Ronald W. Clark, Page 422.]

“Human beings in their thinking, feeling and acting are not free
but are as causally bound as the stars in their motions.”

“I am compelled to act as if free will existed, because if I wish to live in a civilized society I must act responsibly. . . I know that philosophically a murderer is not responsible for his crime, but I prefer not to take tea with him.”*

I do not at all believe in human freedom in the philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only under external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity.”

Albert Einstein (1954)

*Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1 400 years earlier;

God's Eternal Decree

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[1]

= we choose according to the reasons God uses to control our free choices. Mental illness or otherwise.

[1] OPC Westminster Confession with Modern English.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Scripture mentions unintentional sin multiple times.




The words that are translated as "sin" from Hebrew do include "pesha" (rebelliousness) or "avone" (iniquity), but the most common word is "hata" (going astray). In Greek, the word most commonly translated as "sin" is "hamartia" (missing the mark). It is possible to go astray or miss the mark without conspiring to, without choosing to.

That a sin may be due to mental illness doesn't make it not a sin, it merely means that it isn't "pesha" or "avone", but it is still "hata".

The problem is that the legalism-infested West has decided that "sin" can only apply to "pesha" and "avone" and uses lack of intent as a get-out-of-jail-free card for sin. Then, when someone has a concept that contradicts hardcore dogmatic legalism, that concept is denounced.

Seems to cover willing sinful things more often?
M-Bob
 
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BryanJohnMaloney

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Seems to cover willing sinful things more often?
M-Bob

So, what? Perhaps willing sin is considered a more pressing issue for most people. Prove that it means unintentional sin isn't recognized at all in Scripture. Why are so many Westerners so upset at the concept of unintentional sin? What's the problem?
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Sin is sin.

If I accidentally fall into sin whatever that means
I have sinned.

One more reason why it is a good thing to be covered for all sins.

Known and unknown.

M-Bob
 
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BryanJohnMaloney

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Sin is sin.

If I accidentally fall into sin whatever that means
I have sinned.

One more reason why it is a good thing to be covered for all sins.

Known and unknown.

M-Bob

So you don't fall into the common Western legalistic trap. Glad to know that. Most people of my acquaintance who think about sin at all (and many don't at all) get heavily hung up on the "sin is rebellion against God" and "sin is a spiritual crime" aspect, to the point of denying the possibility of unintentional sin.

After all, if I didn't mean to bump into someone and knock him on his butt, does that mean that I should feel no compunction that I knocked someone on his butt? Perhaps if I am an uncultured street thug, but I'm not.
 
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zippy2006

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As we've progressed with the "science" of psychology, it seems we may have realised a great deal of sinful action is the result of some form of mental illness in human beings. Some people have chemical imbalances, but others appear to do what they do due to issues related in their upbringing, a tragedy that happened to them, or something that hurt them. (I frame all this under 'illness' here). Either way, people do sinful things because something has affected them.

However, is this view of sin biblical? Is there space to explore this within a biblical framework? Or is this idea merely a human construct designed to make excuses for us? And if so, how do we stop doing the things we perhaps even don't want to do but feel compelled to do?

I think this is an interesting and relevant discussion for today.

Biblically, Paul comes to mind:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. (Romans 7:15-20)
See also Jesus' ministry when he is casting out demons and unclean spirits.


It seems to me that our society's focus on mental illness and antecedent conditions is a Darwinian offspring that deprives human beings of responsibility, nobility, and an orderedness towards God. The primary deviation from Biblical thinking is that sinful action is a physical-material malady rather than a spiritual one. So when the modern world sees sin it prescribes medicine in order to "correct chemical imbalances."

The problem is that even supposing there is a chemical imbalance, it is not the root of the problem. Perpetual psychiatric medication is treating a symptom in the majority of cases. Further, someone whose behavior is highly dependent on medication is still deeply affected by the sinful condition of humanity, but that fact is being masked.

The causality of mental illness or tragic circumstances is not in question, and the human medical sciences are obliged to take these factors into account in their healing work. But it seems to me that the "level of causality" becomes confused in our materialistic, quick-fix world. In Biblical language, it is a sickness of the heart, not just the body.

(Not being a doctor, I speak under correction, particularly from folks like @Quid est Veritas?)
 
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zippy2006

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Either way, people do sinful things because something has affected them.

I wouldn't say that this particular idea is new. Biblically there is always a chain of sin. For example, we move from Adam's sin to Cain's sin to the dire situation at the time of Noah. When Israel is captive in Babylon they try to discern where they went wrong, they try to understand why God's wrath is upon them. When evil is done the divine curse extends many generations. When Jesus finds those who will not acknowledge the truth, they are 'Sons of The One who was a liar from the beginning.'

Similarly, in the ancient and especially the Greco-Roman world, the idea of Fate loomed large. Our own concept of and emphasis on free will is more recent. So the fact that our society has stepped further towards determinism is jarring to a post-Enlightenment world, but an ancient person wouldn't find it excessively odd that a person would be possessed by a god or a demon (which is probably how they viewed what we label psychological disorders). Even someone as recent as Carl Jung had a more or less mythological worldview and ascribed fundamental causality to that sphere (albeit in a more subjective way than the ancients).

Of course, the converse also holds in much the same way. "People do good things because something (good) has affected them."
 
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...Some people have chemical imbalances....

I think the problem with this is, we can’t know which is first, chemical reaction in brain, or idea/thought in the mind that cause the chemical reaction. It may be that brain is only what connects soul/spirit to the body, not the conscience or mind itself.
 
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Einstein on Free Will (This corresponds to your post.)

“Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect, as well as for the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper.” [Einstein: The Life and Times, Ronald W. Clark, Page 422.]

“Human beings in their thinking, feeling and acting are not free
but are as causally bound as the stars in their motions.”

“I am compelled to act as if free will existed, because if I wish to live in a civilized society I must act responsibly. . . I know that philosophically a murderer is not responsible for his crime, but I prefer not to take tea with him.”*

I do not at all believe in human freedom in the philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only under external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity.”

Albert Einstein (1954)

*Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1 400 years earlier;

God's Eternal Decree

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[1]

= we choose according to the reasons God uses to control our free choices. Mental illness or otherwise.

[1] OPC Westminster Confession with Modern English.
What chapter and verse is Einstein pulling that from?
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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This is squarely the Mind-Body problem. A number of points here, though.

"Chemical Imbalances" is a highly misunderstood idea. We have never demonstrated a causation between nerve function and conscious experience or volition. What we did notice, is that if given Reserpine, a drug that depletes dopamine stores, people subjectively report feeling depressed. Subsequently this finding was extended to use of anti-depressants such as the Selective Serotonin or Noradrenaline reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs, SNRIs) or Monamine Oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs). In medical studies they seem to help those with depression, but no causation has been established. It is a tentative theory, as measured levels don't seem to support this. There are other theories in Psychiatry, but this is the go to one to tell patients, as we inevitably prescribe some antidepressant.

That this is really even a true effect has not been established. Kitsch did a whole series of meta-analyses, taking into account secondary placebo effect where an active substance is tested vs an inert placebo so that people can guess which is which, and found antidepressants no better than placebo except for Sertraline. By Evidence-Based means we still prescribe them by the thinnest of margins, but the 'chemical imbalance' theory for depression is skating on thin ice indeed. One should think this, as very different drugs, that act on different pathways, all show similar effect - which suggests similar mode of action, and thus makes their different pathways of action perplexing. This was what made Kitsch hypothesise a common pathway of action via extended placebo effect. So, not discarded, but very far from being an established fact.

You should remember that if fully explicable organically, then it is Neurology. If able to be shown to be mentally-derived, then Psychology. Psychiatry mans the vast nomansland between these, where elements of both are presumed present. So for instance, some of the most effective treatments for Depression are things like Cognitive-Behaviour Therapy, which is essentially just counselling to retrain your brain. With Psychiatric illness there is a chicken or the egg thing going on, as though physical changes in the brain occur, we cannot assert this is the cause of the syndromic picture or the consequence of mental ideation - especially as psychotherapy and neural plasticity alters these changes.

Don't overestimate what we know. We have subjective reports what people are thinking, which we couple to fMRI pictures, but this doesn't show material causation for those thoughts unless you assume a material origin solely beforehand. We have what are called Neural Correlates of Consciousness, so we can show what areas are vaguely associated with decision making, but we haven't shown those areas as causative. They may just be a consequence thereof, which studies on muscle relaxants and EEG and fMRI studies equivocally support.

So quite frankly, you cannot blame decisions made on deranged neural activity straight. You can have delusions or hallucinations resulting in decisions made, but those are decisions based on erroneous perceptions, not decisions themselves that can be shown to be non-volitional.

Similarly with substance use. I cannot give you a substance and mould you to my will. Certain substances, like alcohol or Ketamine, disinhibit you or dissociate your actions. They increase suggestibility, but they cannot force you to do something against your will. They can remove qualms say, or suppress conscience, but not make you kill someone if you are a conscientious objector, say. Movies really oversell these things.

So the way I see it, some people receive erroneous data from their senses or brains, but their conscious actions, their volition, remains. If you really think everyone is trying to kill you, then it seems perfectly reasonable to defend yourself by stabbing them before they do. This is why we are told not to judge. God knows what people thought, what inputs they received, what state their body was in, and based thereon, what decisions they made - to sin or not to sin. I don't think you can excuse sin on the grounds of a physical malady. What of an alcoholic, then? We don't give them a free run to drink just because they are predisposed. Or if I have a strong drive to lust after women, am I excused of my sin by the body's physiological drives? Of course not.

Besides, Biblically the person is a unity of multiples. The NT has the body, soul and spirit; the OT has the living and dead nephesh with the ruach or breath. This is also why we are told to expect a new body at the Parousia. We are a composite being, a part of which seems to be a material body - so any deficiencies of that body are ultimately part of us, and our responsibility to overcome to become a son of God - as we must overcome our sins eventually through Christ. Afterall, we are told to empty out ourselves, to loose our lives to gain Life. That to me says to overcome our physical limitations, and I see no medical reason to consider them permanent stumbling blocks. They are aspects of our fallen nature, as much as our more psychical drives to sin, like pride or lust or so. The very efficacy of psychotherapy in Psychiatric syndromes shows the power of the will, even in something that seems as intractable as schizophrenia.

We shall stand before our Maker one day, and He will separate the goats from the sheep. He knows which animal was a bit thick in the head, or had a bad leg; but the point was on their decisions to follow the shepherd or not. Perhaps far more virtue was required of that alcoholic to not have that one drink, or that angry man to not lash out, than we realise who do not have those predispositions.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I wouldn't say that this particular idea is new. Biblically there is always a chain of sin. For example, we move from Adam's sin to Cain's sin to the dire situation at the time of Noah. When Israel is captive in Babylon they try to discern where they went wrong, they try to understand why God's wrath is upon them. When evil is done the divine curse extends many generations. When Jesus finds those who will not acknowledge the truth, they are 'Sons of The One who was a liar from the beginning.'

Similarly, in the ancient and especially the Greco-Roman world, the idea of Fate loomed large. Our own concept of and emphasis on free will is more recent. So the fact that our society has stepped further towards determinism is jarring to a post-Enlightenment world, but an ancient person wouldn't find it excessively odd that a person would be possessed by a god or a demon (which is probably how they viewed what we label psychological disorders). Even someone as recent as Carl Jung had a more or less mythological worldview and ascribed fundamental causality to that sphere (albeit in a more subjective way than the ancients).

Of course, the converse also holds in much the same way. "People do good things because something (good) has affected them."
Carl Jung's collective unconscious often seems very much operative. That is why it is likened to a world soul so frequently.

Similarly the Stoic image of a dog tethered to a cart springs to mind. There is a limited ability based on antecedent factors, but a scope for action within that remains. No, debate on what is innate, in our stars, vs what is due to volition, has a long history.

The problem though is this idea of trying to either reduce to Idealism or Materialism. Neither seems very coherent, and I think a psycho-somatic approach, leaving the mind-body tension in place, best concurs with the evidence I see.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Also remember, we aren't separate from our surroundings. In the old days things were seen as a human microcosm inside a macrocosm with forces acting between them. So for instance we had astrologic forces, or the four elements trying to balance in the humours in the body and return to differentiation, or the effects of external factors such as scary objects 'inducing' panic say. The latter is odd to us, as we have internalised it, but that is how we have words like awe-inspiring or panic-stricken - both implying an external thing entering to create it, a participation of the Self with environment therein - we still see the same kind of archaic thinking in colour, which is an artifact of our perception, but we ascribe it to external objects.

We aren't separate today, though we like to conceive that the corner of the cosmos encompassed by our skin is somehow different. Light still enters to make vitamin D, or particles and radiation enter that sometimes facilitates cancer, or magnetic fields that subtly alter the electro-chemical gradients of nerves. There is no hard border between 'us' and our environment, just semi-permeable membranes. This obviously impacts function. Imperceptible material forces impact our daily life, our physiologic functioning. Even something quotidian like hunger, might predispose us to sins like lashing out in anger. Epigenetically, how your parents' ate impacts how your body metabolises, or their alcohol intake helps determine your chance of being alcoholic. The mind-body duality is more a differentiation in essence, rather than in functioning or practice.

Now if we abandon the purely material realm, what more about non-material influences? We can't measure them, but certainly can't we see effects thereof? Sin begets sin. Even direct effects of human action, like abused children have a greater tendency to become child abusers - sins of the fathers and all that. I am not even touching completely spiritual elements yet. That we are products of the forces shaping us, is not controversial or a new idea. From an eternal viewpoint, would not each generation flow from the previous ones, a continuous mass of organic humanity.

Does this mean that our 'I' does not exist? Why, in practice I certainly act as if I do, and I ascribe my actions and decisions to myself whenever they are good - no one excuses his success with his genetics or upbringing, usually we only try and excuse the bad. That certain influences went into the decision I make, does not mean I didn't make them.


Edit: Actually, nowadays be do try and excuse their success by their upbringing, in this thing called Privilege. That seems more to fall afoul of the commandment to honour your parents than anything else, and is just a way to shift personal responsibility. Each person ultimately stands alone before God, and we only know what we ourselves are thinking or perceiving, so bear responsibility for it. Again, the sins of the father unto the 7th generation, but those blessed unto 7 times 7. You reap what you sow, and this continues into your children and beyond, as the infection of sin disseminates into the body of humanity in general.
 
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What chapter and verse is Einstein pulling that from?
Actually it is from the bible. The Westminster Confession said it 400 years earlier and backs it with scripture. Chapter 3 God's eternal decree if interested.
 
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I think this is an interesting and relevant discussion for today.
Yes perhaps, because so many people are affected and need salvation (/healing) in so many ways, physical, mental, as well as spiritual, and more....

And if so, how do we stop doing the things we perhaps even don't want to do but feel compelled to do?

Jesus told His Own Apostles : I know you don't know how to live.
.... If you think you can figure it out <on your own> you have already failed....
...or... If you trust yourselves to accomplish it, you have already failed ....

so, "COME TO ME (JESUS), and I WILL SHOW you how (to live). "
and, "Trust the Father to accomplish salvation in this life and in the life to come, and it is already done" ...

However, is this view of sin biblical? Is there space to explore this within a biblical framework? Or is this idea merely a human construct designed to make excuses for us?
There's no excuse for sin. (in Scripture)
Perhaps as the Father KNOWS EVERYTHING about ALL,
what some people think is sin, is not sin.? (a matter of the will/ motive/ goal? ) ... God Knows....

The help that God Gives is not short. (or as written "is MY HAND SHORT, that I cannot save? (/heal) " He is well able to direct everyone to where He wants them. (if they are willing)
Society is the opposite of God's Way. Society is leading to death/ destruction.
Yet God "causeth all things TO WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD to those who love God, who are called according to His Purpose" , yes, even things in society and governments that are not seeking to DO God's Will... God is in charge , sovereignly.
 
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