(Mental) illness, upbringing and sin

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Either way, people do sinful things because something has affected them.

Everything born of the flesh is flesh, and profits nothing. Just being born (a human), means someone is of the flesh. They/we/ all start separated from God.

 

[Peter J Barban]

As we've progressed with the "science" of psychology, it seems we may have realised a great deal of sinful action is the result of some form of mental illness in human beings. Some people have chemical imbalances, but others appear to do what they do due to issues related in their upbringing, a tragedy that happened to them, or something that hurt them. (I frame all this under 'illness' here). Either way, people do sinful things because something has affected them.

However, is this view of sin biblical? Is there space to explore this within a biblical framework? Or is this idea merely a human construct designed to make excuses for us? And if so, how do we stop doing the things we perhaps even don't want to do but feel compelled to do?

I think this is an interesting and relevant discussion for today.

Hi, I have a BA in Psychology and a Masters in Divinity, so I have often dealt with this issue.

Psychology came into its own as a replacement for Christian theology. Man is the center of this study and there is no room for the God of the Bible. So, in a fundamental way, psychology is incompatible with the Bible. Any agreement between the two is incidental. Trusting psychology (where it disagrees with the Bible) will lead to error and destruction.

To use homosexuality as an example, early psychologists said that it was a form of insanity. It was not a moral failure, but a mental dysfunction.

As culture devolved, homosexuality was explained by psychologists as a morally acceptable choice. One could freely choose to be gay or not.

As society sank further, Homosexuality was defined as assigned before birth and not something that was either sinful or chosen. In fact, psychologists declared that homosexuals were morally good if they obeyed their natural-born, presumably genetic, inclinations. And that anyone who tried to restrain themselves was unnatural.

While sexual expression was being defined as innately born, gender was now being declared as not innately born and in fact a social construct, by psychologists. I can't wait to find out the next "psychological truth" to be discovered (child sex, animal sex, human sacrifice, etc.)

While the gender-swapping movement has surprised me, I have long anticipated the final "psychological truth" to emerge: that homosexuality is the superior, the ultimate, expression of self. Thus, man turns from the creator and worships himself in the most shameful ways.

So, by way of example, you can see where psychology (regardless of the nominal subject of study and intentionally divorced from the God of the Bible) must lead to its final destination.

 

[Ohj1n37]

As we've progressed with the "science" of psychology, it seems we may have realised a great deal of sinful action is the result of some form of mental illness in human beings. Some people have chemical imbalances, but others appear to do what they do due to issues related in their upbringing, a tragedy that happened to them, or something that hurt them.

Hi, I have autism, bipolar disorder, and ADHD. I had a really bad episode years back and that ended up with me eventually becoming saved. It also is how they found out I had bipolar disorder. I had been on a medication for ten plus years for autism. The problem is that it had been trapping me in a bipolar depression state for all those years because the drug works as a chemical restraint.

Anyway during those years I had a love hate relationship with God. For some reason I always knew he was real. I would praise him and curse him, I was a mess. I didn't know him, but I knew of him. In those years I also had a choice. Matter of fact even when I had my psychotic episode where I had been up for several weeks after being off the medicine for autism I still had a choice. I new what I was doing and I knew it was wrong even though my judgement was very cloudy and I was very confused.

The good news is that while there is no excuse for any sin and all sin is more or less equal in God's eyes we have God's grace and mercy. In one of Paul's writings he talks about Pharaoh and how God hardened his heart. I believe Paul says something like God has mercy on who he has mercy. I believe this is the meaning to the scripture the keys of life and death have been given to Jesus. Ultimately Jesus knows what we go through and knows what is in our hearts.

How this pertains to the conversation is that while we might see someone suffering mental illness or issues they may have had growing up God can see someone's heart and regardless of their current worldly capabilities sees if they have the desire to follow and serve him first or not.

 

[aiki]

As we've progressed with the "science" of psychology,

Has psychology progressed? Isn't it still considered a "soft science," borrowing heavily from neuroscience, biochemistry and related "hard science" fields for its legitimacy? Mostly, psychology seems to be a collection of discarded theories that appear as tied to philosophical ideologies and social theories as to anything actually scientific.

it seems we may have realised a great deal of sinful action is the result of some form of mental illness in human beings.

Well, the current era seems very eager to pathologize every sort of negative human thinking or behaviour. It seems to me this has more to do with philosophy than with medical science, with a desire to sin without pangs of conscience or a sense of responsibility for one's thinking and behaviour.

Some people have chemical imbalances, but others appear to do what they do due to issues related in their upbringing, a tragedy that happened to them, or something that hurt them.

Do chemical imbalances always precede "mental illness"? I'm not so sure they do. From what I've understood of the pathology of, say, depression, it is often sustained depressive thinking that eventually produces a corresponding physiological component, not the other way around.

Poor diet, high, unrelieved stress, injury and disease may all generate negative psychological effects but are these the sole reasons for anxiety, depression, personality disorders, compulsions, etc? I don't think so.

Unhappy circumstances may strongly and badly affect a person's psychology. But a life lived God's way, in conformity to His truth, commands, wisdom and spiritual principles, in moment-by-moment surrender to His will and way, is a life well-equipped to endure suffering of whatever sort with equanimity and even joy. Barring genuine physical causes, no Christian living God's way has to labor under constant depression, fear, compulsiveness, and delusion.

2 Timothy 1:7
7 For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come unto me, all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Galatians 5:22
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace...

Either way, people do sinful things because something has affected them.

I suppose. Scripture, though, makes this observation about ourselves and our sin:

Jeremiah 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

James 1:14-15
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

However, is this view of sin biblical?

The idea that sin is caused by circumstances beyond our control, that sin is always the product of some "pathological disorder," is not biblical.

And if so, how do we stop doing the things we perhaps even don't want to do but feel compelled to do?

God's way is by process of death and replacement.

Matthew 16:24-25
John 12:24-25
Colossians 3:3
Romans 6:6
Galatians 2:20
2 Corinthians 5:17

 

[Emsmom1]

I am confused; are people saying mental illness isn't real? Or simply not an excuse for bad behavior?

 

[Peter J Barban]

I am confused; are people saying mental illness isn't real? Or simply not an excuse for bad behavior?

Some people do not believe mental illness is separate from spiritual illness. I think that view is too simple. But saying that mental illness has no spiritual connection is even worse.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

As we've progressed with the "science" of psychology, it seems we may have realised a great deal of sinful action is the result of some form of mental illness in human beings. Some people have chemical imbalances, but others appear to do what they do due to issues related in their upbringing, a tragedy that happened to them, or something that hurt them. (I frame all this under 'illness' here). Either way, people do sinful things because something has affected them.

Any excuse works for the guilty.

However, is this view of sin biblical?

No. And it doesn’t work in real life either. No teacher, boss, judge, friend let’s one behave as they feel like excusing it as not their fault.

Is there space to explore this within a biblical framework?

Doubt it. Truth and lies don’t mix. One never finds understanding by trying to combine them.

Or is this idea merely a human construct designed to make excuses for us?

Yes

And if so, how do we stop doing the things we perhaps even don't want to do but feel compelled to do?

Stop excusing behavior with words like “feel compelled”
and substitute “freely chose” to do. Sheds light on the deed.

I think this is an interesting and relevant discussion for today.

Spin doctors will find ways to make the guilty feel better. It’s popular.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I am confused; are people saying mental illness isn't real? Or simply not an excuse for bad behavior?

I think the trend is to excuse all bad behavior removing responsiblity and choice from the perpetrator. Doesn’t mean there isn’t real mental illness. But it does remove the possibility of choices the perpetrator made being responsible for both their mental illness and it’s outcome.

 

[Mark Quayle]

As we've progressed with the "science" of psychology, it seems we may have realised a great deal of sinful action is the result of some form of mental illness in human beings. Some people have chemical imbalances, but others appear to do what they do due to issues related in their upbringing, a tragedy that happened to them, or something that hurt them. (I frame all this under 'illness' here). Either way, people do sinful things because something has affected them.

However, is this view of sin biblical? Is there space to explore this within a biblical framework? Or is this idea merely a human construct designed to make excuses for us? And if so, how do we stop doing the things we perhaps even don't want to do but feel compelled to do?

I think this is an interesting and relevant discussion for today.

I believe that even within every good deed a person can do, there is sin at work. The doctrine of Total Depravity doesn't mean that every person has sunk as low as it gets, but that sin is pervasive in all we do, as unbelievers. We may be able to comply with the commands of God, and even succeed better than most believers, but compliance is not the same as obedience.

Therefore, at least according to Reformed theology, the degree of one's sinfulness does not compare with the degree of another's, and indeed Scripture says that if we fail in any one point of the law we are guilty of breaking the whole law. Therefore, the cause of sin is irrelevant, "If I sin, *I* sin."

But we can count on it that God is just; "Will not the judge of all the earth do what is right?". He would have no reason to create, if he was unjust. He has no interest in condemning for its own sake.

If we try to qualify our sin with excuses and reasons, that in itself can be a worse sin than the sin we try to justify. Only God can judge us --we are not even our own judge, though we are told to search our hearts. But only God knows us thoroughly --better than we can know ourselves. He knows what we did, and why we did it, and he is just, precisely and thoroughly just. He will not punish more than we deserve, nor less. But he will [have] punish[ed] Christ in our place, if we repent. (1 John 1:9)

It is a much safer and calmer place to rest in the fact that he is the judge, instead of being in a mindset that's continuously figuring out whether this or that is really sin, condeming or justifying one's individual deeds and motives. Our lives are not about us anyway --so let's just walk with him, and let him judge. We already KNOW we have sinfulness in us, so turn from it and do what is right.

 

[Love Others]

.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I believe that even within every good deed a person can do, there is sin at work. The doctrine of Total Depravity doesn't mean that every person has sunk as low as it gets, but that sin is pervasive in all we do, as unbelievers. We may be able to comply with the commands of God, and even succeed better than most believers, but compliance is not the same as obedience.

Therefore, at least according to Reformed theology, the degree of one's sinfulness does not compare with the degree of another's, and indeed Scripture says that if we fail in any one point of the law we are guilty of breaking the whole law. Therefore, the cause of sin is irrelevant, "If I sin, *I* sin."

THis is very sad and I see for the first time the joy that the Enemy has robbed from those who believe this. There can be no pleasure in doing that which God asked a man to do with the simple delight of knowing it was pure and untouched by sin for a moment in one's life. Everything has to be thought of as tainted with sin because for the Calvinist, sin is not "something outside of you that wants in and you must master it" as God described sin but something you are from birth. They enemy is robbing my brethren in this theology and it makes me sad. (I do more than just feel sad but not at this moment.)

 

[bèlla]

I believe mental illness exists but I don’t believe poor behavior is without consequence. We’re accountable for our actions. Otherwise it becomes a scapegoat for human error.

 

[Mark Quayle]

THis is very sad and I see for the first time the joy that the Enemy has robbed from those who believe this. There can be no pleasure in doing that which God asked a man to do with the simple delight of knowing it was pure and untouched by sin for a moment in one's life. Everything has to be thought of as tainted with sin because for the Calvinist, sin is not "something outside of you that wants in and you must master it" as God described sin but something you are from birth. They enemy is robbing my brethren in this theology and it makes me sad. (I do more than just feel sad but not at this moment.)

I have little doubt you honestly feel concerning us the things you describe (and refrain from describing). But the joy is in the Lord. Certainly there is a kind of joy in well-doing, and you may consider that to be a thing in-and-of-itself, but it is not --it is the work of God, even when enjoyed by a non-believer.

Your thoughts are "it must be" --i.e. your logical conclusions based on your conception of what we think and your presuppositions of what we have missed. But you do not understand what we think nor know what we have gladly forsaken.

I wish I knew how to get across to you the notion that we are not separately from God anything to commend ourselves to him. We do not accomplish anything for him without HIS doing it. We do not add to him what he is not.

There is plenty of reason to think that we are not even complete beings until we see him as he is. WHY, then should we take on ourselves the ability to do something, whether by duty or pleasure or both, apart from Christ? And WHY should we consider it a pleasure to have added to God's work?

What you are saying reminds me of an Atheist who said something like, "Sorry, but such self-debasing, lap-doggish worship is simply degrading". You seem to want to enjoy God, but at arms length. It is almost as if YOU want to be in charge of the relationship. "The bed is too short, the blanket too narrow to wrap around yourself."

"Apart from me you can do nothing."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I have little doubt you honestly feel concerning us the things you describe (and refrain from describing). But the joy is in the Lord. Certainly there is a kind of joy in well-doing, and you may consider that to be a thing in-and-of-itself, but it is not --it is the work of God, even when enjoyed by a non-believer.

Your thoughts are "it must be" --i.e. your logical conclusions based on your conception of what we think and your presuppositions of what we have missed. But you do not understand what we think nor know what we have gladly forsaken.

I wish I knew how to get across to you the notion that we are not separately from God anything to commend ourselves to him. We do not accomplish anything for him without HIS doing it. We do not add to him what he is not.

There is plenty of reason to think that we are not even complete beings until we see him as he is. WHY, then should we take on ourselves the ability to do something, whether by duty or pleasure or both, apart from Christ? And WHY should we consider it a pleasure to have added to God's work?

What you are saying reminds me of an Atheist who said something like, "Sorry, but such self-debasing, lap-doggish worship is simply degrading". You seem to want to enjoy God, but at arms length. It is almost as if YOU want to be in charge of the relationship. "The bed is too short, the blanket too narrow to wrap around yourself."

"Apart from me you can do nothing."

There is so much that doesn’t match the truth in this I don’t know where to begin. Let’s just leave this one.

 

[Fervent]

I see this in two different ways. The first is personal, as I have been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and find many of the treatments effective in mitigating the symptoms. Yet at the same time the greatest instance of spiritual warfare I have experienced has been in a mental hospital and it was clear that many of those suffering from a variety of conditions either willingly or through passivity have become plagued with evil spirits.
When it comes to causes, the issue comes down to how sin is often viewed. More often than not it's assigned a spiritual/moral value and thought to be intangible. Yet sin physically changes things, and perpetually living in sin and thinking about sin changes the physical structures of the brain as well as leading to living in a physical environment in which sin is encouraged. So the physical/medical condition is caused by the spiritual condition but that causation does not mean it is less real or that just treating the spiritual condition will make it go away. Sin has effects that we often forget about that go well beyond the direct sphere.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I see this in two different ways. The first is personal, as I have been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and find many of the treatments effective in mitigating the symptoms. Yet at the same time the greatest instance of spiritual warfare I have experienced has been in a mental hospital and it was clear that many of those suffering from a variety of conditions either willingly or through passivity have become plagued with evil spirits.
When it comes to causes, the issue comes down to how sin is often viewed. More often than not it's assigned a spiritual/moral value and thought to be intangible. Yet sin physically changes things, and perpetually living in sin and thinking about sin changes the physical structures of the brain as well as leading to living in a physical environment in which sin is encouraged. So the physical/medical condition is caused by the spiritual condition but that causation does not mean it is less real or that just treating the spiritual condition will make it go away. Sin has effects that we often forget about that go well beyond the direct sphere.

I agree wholeheartedly. This applies also in doctrine against the notion that there is such a thing as 'hidden sin'. If sin affects even one member of the body of Christ, it affects the whole, and indeed it affects all of creation. Sin is a horror, 'cosmic treason', as David in his awful sin of murder, adultery, and indirectly, even blasphemy as leader of the nation of Israel, says, "against Thee only have I sinned".

One rendering of what God told Cain implies a personality to sin, something like, "...behold, sin crouches at the threshold. It desires to have you..."

Here we see the painful fact that sin is not defined by "something one intends", as defined by the notion that what is wrong within the mind is not the fault of the soul occupying that mind. Wrong is wrong. If I sin, *I* sinned. Who am I, for an obvious example, having grown up with the habit of anger, whose brain is wired to anger, who too quickly justifies anger, whose body is addicted to anger, to say, "I didn't mean to lose it."

Too, often, to bring it a little closer to home, do we say we have not sinned if we didn't mean to disobey, without realizing the hold the 'old man' still has on us and motivates us. We didn't feel rebellious against God --therefore, it was not done in rebellion? Really???

"God looks upon the heart to judge the sin" works both ways.

Yet he knows our frame. He knows we are but dust. Thank God for his mercy and patience.

 

[Paulomycin]

Everything has to be thought of as tainted with sin because for the Calvinist, sin is not "something outside of you that wants in and you must master it" as God described sin but something you are from birth.

Which isn't even a "Calvinist" doctrine to begin with, but simply a Biblical one.

Total Depravity Verse List | Travis Carden

^ All these verses together. Not even sure I could copypaste them all into one post. But yeah, sin really is something you are from birth. Otherwise, you're saying there's some part of you that isn't a sinner.

"We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we're sinners."

 

[Paulomycin]

There is so much that doesn’t match the truth in this I don’t know where to begin. Let’s just leave this one.

Oh, you're abandoning the thread altogether. I didn't read this before I posted. Nevermind.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Which isn't even a "Calvinist" doctrine to begin with, but simply a Biblical one.

Total Depravity Verse List | Travis Carden

^ All these verses together. Not even sure I could copypaste them all into one post. But yeah, sin really is something you are from birth. Otherwise, you're saying there's some part of you that isn't a sinner.

"We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we're sinners."

Your last quote, "We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we're sinners." is a demonstrated in a proper use of the word, 'because', in this verse from your list mentioned above.

• Romans 5:12,19 - sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned… by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners

Notice there are at least two ways to take the logical progression of thought in this passage. Is "because" used to say that death spread to all men as a result of the fact that they all sinned? It seems to me obvious it is not saying that --it is either sying just the opposite, or in saying 'because' it is short for something like, "We know this, because". The whole statement is a rhetorical, "[We know that] death spread to all men because all sinned", or "...because -[of the fact] that all sinned."

I think the same construction is acceptable in several other passages of Scripture. John 3:18 is one of them: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Which isn't even a "Calvinist" doctrine to begin with, but simply a Biblical one.

Total Depravity Verse List | Travis Carden

^ All these verses together. Not even sure I could copypaste them all into one post. But yeah, sin really is something you are from birth. Otherwise, you're saying there's some part of you that isn't a sinner.

"We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we're sinners."

The quote is not from the Bible because that is not a Biblical view so you have to use what a man says instead. It’s a theology to relief man of guilt from what he did. Sin is not his fault.

Since it’s your theology can you please give me a Bible verse that says “man is totally depraved.” It’s a doctrine invented by Augustine.