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Mehmed the Conqueror and Gennadius II

Yoder777

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HAHHAHAHAHA! Right, now it's not a good time to build anything!
Now it's demolishing time only :D

If you are in a riot against the state's complacency with the global banking system perhaps. By the way, how are things in Greece these days? Is it a safe place to live? I have relatives there, including a certain anti-austerity politician. I wish I still had the money to make regular donations to International Orthodox Christian Charities.
 
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If you are in a riot against the state's complacency with the global banking system perhaps. By the way, how are things in Greece these days? Is it a safe place to live? I have relatives there, including a certain anti-austerity politician. I wish I still had the money to make regular donations to International Orthodox Christian Charities.

Well, at least the current government SEEMS to be trying. But they still prefer to tax the poor ones instead of having the big wallets pay their part.
Unemployment is nearing 30% there numbers of homeless and poor ones is rising, there are a lot of people who live out of the meals of the Church, neo nazism is also getting more popular (the Golden Dawn party got 7% of the votes during the latest elections) and crime rate is also rising. However I wouldn't say that Greece is particularly dangerous. Not more than any other country of Europe.
God willing, your relatives will be fine (where do they live? In the center of Athens/in the northern suburbs?)
 
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Yoder777

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I know a little bit about how Syrian Jacobites, Copts, and Armenians at least initially reacted to Islam's overtaking of the Byzantine empire. In the decades that followed, many welcomed Islamic rule as the lesser evil compared to the persecution suffered under Byzantine rule. Perhaps the Middle East would still be Christian today if these Christian brothers had come together for mutual protection instead of clinging to past dogmatic disputes.

When I post about these issues, it is simply to become more enlightened as to what went on historically. As a student of history, I don't mean to and I am sorry to have offended anyone. I welcome and appreciate a variety of perspectives and thank you for them.
 
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Yoder777

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I've read the Sword of the Prophet by Serge Trifkovic and have emailed with him many times. Though I am not an Islamophile, I am not an Islamophobe either. Is it possible that, in a spirit of Christian love, we can find a realistic middleground between the two?
 
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By the way, how likely is it that a mosque will be built in Athens any time soon? The Turks would hopefully see that as a diplomatic gesture.
I think as likely as a Saudi mosque in Moscow. Last I heard on that one Putin's words were "We will allow it when we can build an Orthodox cathedral in Mecca".
Non-Muslims of ANY sort are not allowed near Mecca.
 
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Yoder777

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I think as likely as a Saudi mosque in Moscow. Last I heard on that one Putin's words were "We will allow it when we can build an Orthodox cathedral in Mecca".
Non-Muslims of ANY sort are not allowed near Mecca.

Why did church and government officials in Greece originally show support of a mosque in Athens? Personally, I don't have an opinion either way whether one should be built, but I think that multiculturalist Westerners should be understanding of the history involved before condemning Greeks for opposing a mosque.
 
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WisdomTree

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Why did church and government officials in Greece originally show support of a mosque in Athens? Personally, I don't have an opinion either way whether one should be built, but I think that multiculturalist Westerners should be understanding of the history involved before condemning Greeks for opposing a mosque.

Until they restore Churches in the ancient apostolic sees and allow us to build Churches in Mecca, Medina, and Qom, I'm personally opposed to building of mosque anywhere in the world especially in the apostolic sees they didn't conquer.
 
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buzuxi02

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By the way, how likely is it that a mosque will be built in Athens any time soon? The Turks would hopefully see that as a diplomatic gesture.


Hopefully never. That Mosque which would have been funded by saudi money and atleast partially by the broke greek government's treasury is not for those of Turkish background. Most of the Turks and musims of greek citizenry reside north in the Thrace region.

This mosque is to appease the illegal alien criminals. Since the western Europeans love them so much they can go there. They should be happy that the Suleiman Mosque in Rhodes is still a Mosque inspite of the fact that it was built on the ruins of the ancient church of the Apostles. Even though there is hardly any Turks in the old city (or elsewhere), its being restored and its minaret remans the tallest structure in the fortress.
Lucky I dont live there, i would have toppled that satanic structure from greek land long ago.
 
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astein

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Hopefully never. That Mosque which would have been funded by saudi money and atleast partially by the broke greek government's treasury is not for those of Turkish background. Most of the Turks and musims of greek citizenry reside north in the Thrace region.

This mosque is to appease the illegal alien criminals. Since the western Europeans love them so much they can go there. They should be happy that the Suleiman Mosque in Rhodes is still a Mosque inspite of the fact that it was built on the ruins of the ancient church of the Apostles. Even though there is hardly any Turks in the old city (or elsewhere), its being restored and its minaret remans the tallest structure in the fortress.
Lucky I dont live there, i would have toppled that satanic structure from greek land long ago.

What is so special about mosque's?

I was invited to a mosque and told to remove my shoes. As if my shoes, walking on land, was offensive to a building built upon the same ground I walked. The ground Jesus walked in the temple. Who decides walking on ground is bad when they do the same daily?
 
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Yoder777

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Lucky I dont live there, i would have toppled that satanic structure from greek land long ago.

I understand and appreciate your feelings and concerns, but referring to a mosque as satanic may be going a little too far.

These are some books that I am interested in reading to gain a fuller perspective on these issues:

Two Traditions, One Space: Orthodox Christians and Muslims in Dialogue: George C. Papademetriou: 9781935244066: Amazon.com: Books

Paths to the Heart: Sufism and the Christian East: James Cutsinger: 9780941532433: Amazon.com: Books

I get most of my books for free through interlibrary loan.
 
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Yoder777

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According to this Gallup poll, the largest of its kind, a majority of the world's Muslims are moderate in their attitudes:
BBC NEWS | Americas | Most Muslims 'desire democracy'

I wonder if this means that a majority of Muslims support the rights of Christians in Islamic lands.

Gallup poll

John Esposito and Dalia Mogahed present data relevant to Islamic views on peace, and more, in their book Who Speaks for Islam? The book reports Gallup poll data from random samples in over 35 countries using Gallup's various research techniques (e.g. pairing male and female interviewers, testing the questions beforehand, communicating with local leaders when approval is necessary, travelling by foot if that is the only way to reach a region, etc.).[1]
There was a great deal of data. It suggests, firstly, that individuals who dislike America and consider the September 11 attacks to be "perfectly justified" form a statistically distinct group, with suddenly more extreme views. The authors call this 7% of Muslims "Politically Radicalized".[1] They chose that title "because of their radical political orientation" and clarify "we are not saying that all in this group commit acts of violence. However, those with extremist views are a potential source for recruitment or support for terrorist groups."[31] The data also indicates that poverty is not simply to blame for the comparatively radical views of this 7% of Muslims, who tend to be better educated than moderates.[31]
The authors say that, contrary to what the media may indicate, most Muslims believe that the September 11 attacks cannot actually be justified at all. The authors called this 55% of Muslims "Moderates". They applied the same label to an additional 12% who said the attacks almost cannot be justified at all. To be clear, 67% of Muslims were classified as Moderates, meaning 26% of Muslims are not quite Moderates, and the remaining 7% are Politically Radicalized. Esposito and Mogahed explain that the labels should not be taken as being perfectly definitive, however (e.g. there may be individuals who would generally not be considered radical, although they believe the attacks were justified, or vice versa).[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_of_Peace#Gallup_poll
 
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WisdomTree

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Yoder777

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I hope so, if not the world is going to turn into a battlefield yet again...

Something that many Westeners don't realize is that a major reason why there are extremist, despotic governments in the Middle East is either because they were created by Western colonialism or were formed in reaction against Western colonialism. An obvious example is how Iran's government was formed as a revolution against the American-installed Shah.

1953 Iranian coup d'état - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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WisdomTree

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Something that many Westeners don't realize is that a major reason why there are extremist, despotic governments in the Middle East is either because they were created by Western colonialism or were formed in reaction against Western colonialism. An obvious example is how Iran's government was formed as a revolution against the American-installed Shah.

1953 Iranian coup d'état - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's true to an extent (especially Iran), but most of the time I think it's just an excuse.
 
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I know a little bit about how Syrian Jacobites, Copts, and Armenians at least initially reacted to Islam's overtaking of the Byzantine empire. In the decades that followed, many welcomed Islamic rule as the lesser evil compared to the persecution suffered under Byzantine rule. Perhaps the Middle East would still be Christian today if these Christian brothers had come together for mutual protection instead of clinging to past dogmatic disputes.

I am afraid that is pretty true. Especially when it comes to the Arab invasions, the Emperors did nothing to calm the religious tension throughout the Northern borders. As for the Arabs, they were pretty decent and well educated folk from what I hear.

But when it comes to the Turks, tha's a different story.
It was a common Ottoman tactic to let rumors spread throughout the Balkan lands about Turkish rule being much better than that of local rulers (religious tolerance, lower taxes etc etc).

Judging by what happened to my country, that was probably a lie.
The church of Hagia Sophia was converted into a Mosque, and many a beautiful pieces of Art were lost.
Some witnesses say that when Constantinople fell, the Turks would believe the books of the Ancient Greek Philosophers and those of the Holy fathers to be worthless, and you could buy 10 of them for ridiculously low prices.
(I believe that was what caused the humanist Aeneas Silvius to say that when Constantinople fell, Homer and Plato died a second death).

In addition, it was the byzantine refuges that helped spark the Renaissance, through spreading the ancient Greek spirit around Europe. Yet after 368 years of ottoman occupation, the once cultured Byzantines had turned into illiterate villagers and brigands. That change alone should give birth to doubts when it comes to the good nature of the Turkish occupations.
Plus, it is safe to say that many negative aspects of the modern Greek society were born during the Ottoman Period of Greece. The Ottoman state cared little of our needs, which led us to find other ways to make ends meet (most of which harmful to the state). Plus, the fact that we hated our conquerors, led us to willingly try and hurt the state.

This distrust against the state survived even after the country gained it's independence and the results are pretty obvious now. I think it is safe to say that other Balkan countries have had similar problems
(well, they also had to endure through Communism, which means they have one more excuse than we do)


When I post about these issues, it is simply to become more enlightened as to what went on historically. As a student of history, I don't mean to and I am sorry to have offended anyone.

No need to worry. We are both talking in a very calm manner and you in particular seem to be one of the few to understand that there are many perspectives from which to see things.
I only hope I do not sound too aggressive either.
 
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Dorothea

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What is so special about mosque's?

I was invited to a mosque and told to remove my shoes. As if my shoes, walking on land, was offensive to a building built upon the same ground I walked. The ground Jesus walked in the temple. Who decides walking on ground is bad when they do the same daily?

The Ethiopian and I believe Coptic Orthodox Churches' folks remove their shoes as well. It has to do with entering holy ground as God said to Moses on the Mt.
 
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Yoder777

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Some witnesses say that when Constantinople fell, the Turks would believe the books of the Ancient Greek Philosophers and those of the Holy fathers to be worthless, and you could buy 10 of them for ridiculously low prices.
(I believe that was what caused the humanist Aeneas Silvius to say that when Constantinople fell, Homer and Plato died a second death).

What about the reputation of Islamic Baghdad and Spain being a place of learning and tolerance? Is the "golden age of Islam" a Western myth?
 
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