Mehmed the Conqueror and Gennadius II

[astein]

It's a fact that Muslims and Christians have a shared history, especially in Eastern Orthodox lands. The only way we can heal from past hurts and resentments is if we discuss them in as far a manner as possible.

That does help, it is true. Understanding that destructive deeds are produced by those that follow destruction is truely an enlightenment on the subject.

 

[astein]

I just realized this is an EO forum section. Apologies for posting so freely in your personal forum section.

 

[Yoder777]

I just realized this is an EO forum section. Apologies for posting so freely in your personal forum section.

As far as I know, you are welcome to share your comments, as long as they aren't to proselytize against Eastern Orthodoxy. Thank you for such insightful comments.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

This is a depiction of Mehmed's promise to Gennadius II to respect the religious rights of Orthodox Christians in the new Ottoman empire. Though I've had a great deal of resentment against the Turks for persecuting my Greek ancestors, this was mostly at the hands of the "Young Turks" who founded modern Turkey at the end of the Ottoman empire.

While Mehmed may not be considered a friend to the Orthodox, did he at least respect their right to worship as a conquered people? I know it's rather easy to feel resentment, but we must understand that it's the nature of nation-states to overtake nation-states. If you're posting on this forum, it's most likely on the land of Indian tribes that you are posting from now.

Powerfual analysis and challenging to consider that many today have rights allowed to their ancestors that other groups were denied. If nothing else, it leaves you feeling thankful for what we have available today and counting one's blessings

 

[Yoder777]

Powerfual analysis and challenging to consider that many today have rights allowed to their ancestors that other groups were denied. If nothing else, it leaves you feeling thankful for what we have available today and counting one's blessings

At one time, quotas were placed on immigrants from Eastern Orthodox backgrounds. I am happy that my grandparents were able to come here from Greece after World War II. I honestly believe that God's hand was involved in founding America as a refuge for the poor and oppressed, despite its many flaws.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

At one time, quotas were placed on immigrants from Eastern Orthodox backgrounds. I am happy that my grandparents were able to come here from Greece after World War II. I honestly believe that God's hand was involved in founding America as a refuge for the poor and oppressed, despite its many flaws.

Originally Posted by Yoder777

I know a little bit about how Syrian Jacobites, Copts, and Armenians at least initially reacted to Islam's overtaking of the Byzantine empire. In the decades that followed, many welcomed Islamic rule as the lesser evil compared to the persecution suffered under Byzantine rule. Perhaps the Middle East would still be Christian today if these Christian brothers had come together for mutual protection instead of clinging to past dogmatic disputes.

I think it makes a world of difference when understanding that even the most flawed of nations can still have redeeming qualities within them - and many times, it can be hard for someone in an oppressed group to stand back and see the ways the Lord blessed through through a dominant majority that may've oppressed them - whether that be in the Lord using individuals from an oppressive culture to bless individuals within the minority one...or the Lord using an oppressive nation later by transforming it for His glory. He did so with the U.S - and many oppressed minorities have been very vocal throughout it's development on that fact...and noted the need to work within systems in gratitude for what is available.....although that also means being honest on where benefits you're thankful for may come at a price of negatives promoted elsewhere.

The same applies to the Byzantine Empire/other Empires afterward.

Byzantine Empire - as amazing as it was - was not always the most benevolent ..regardless of what was done to it later on by other groups (paticularly from Islam). And as much as others may decry what occurred with Native Americans, it is not as if there were not other groups within the Byzantine Empire who got harsh treatment/less protection. It's so easy to assume that the group you hail from which may've been persecuted is incapable of treating others harshley. Richard Twiss (who died recently/worked with Native Americans being brought to Christ) discussed a lot of that once when saying how it can be problematic that you don't see real representation of Christianity celebrated in Native American style like with European style or Black culture - and yet in the same way, a lot of Natives aren't honest in not admitting that they cannot hate whites because they'd do the same thing if they had the chance and the roles were reversed historically with the English being a minority - and the Natives going to Englnad/forcing them to act Native. .....and the English fleeing to other nations that eventually harmed the Natives. He really broke it down when sharing on our cultural preferences, and our incompleteness without our neighbor.

• The Work of the People: Films: WOUNDED INDIAN

It can be easy to demonize one group because of what others from the group did to people - and yet forget that to react in sweeping terms is just as bad as to toleratemess. I've often had to consider what may happen when I don't want to celebrate someone's culture because of my prejudice against theirs (like others prejudiced against Byzantines or Byzantines prejudiced against the Muslims) - and it potentially causes someone to not walk in their calling because I told them they weren't good enough in not looking like me or having all my experiences which my culture valued.

The same could happen for others when it comes to Black/Hispanic culture - telling them you have to look like them in order for God to really value/be concerned...or giving them a message with your behavior that God may love them - but he really doesn't like them that much or likes them a lot less than he does my own culture. Or - if being a minority - saying that you're not going to celebrate some things in white in culture because it's not your culture...and then trying to exalt your own culture as superior to theirs in all respects ...like Jonah did with his own.

Indeed, there was big exodus into Islamic territory to recieve sanctuary - just as others fled into Persia earlier for protection. Philip Jenkins did a good job showing this in Chapter 4 of his book "The Lost History of Christianity: The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia--and How It Died " (more so discussed in another one of your threads here) - for as Islamic rule spread throughout the Middle East and Africa, Nestorians and Jacobites first received it as a liberating force from Orthodox oppression. And this seemed beneficial until other events played out. During the first few centuries of Muslim rule, persecution of Christians was local, sporadic, and without official support. Christians served in the highest levels government and were known as the best scholars in the land. Nonetheless, they were increasingly subjected to harsher dhimmi laws, and outbreaks of widespread, organized persecution began to be sanctioned by the government in the late tenth and early eleventh centuries. After the Mongol invasions and the persecutions of the Mamluk dynasty in the fourteenth century, Christianity would disappear in Nubia, China, Iraq, and Persia and would enter into significant decline in Armenia, Egypt, Ethiopia, and Georgia. There was a growing intolerance throughout the world at this time and the terrible massacres of Christians in Islamic lands ....and yet, for many experiencing those things, others realized there was a shared experience between the Byzantines and those who were mistreated within or exiled from the Byzantine Empire.

Both had the shared experience in suffering for Christ - and that laid the foundation for today in looking back/seeing the opportunity for reconcilliation when realizing they what occurred was an issue of brothers realizing they may've been hating each other and yet not seeing how they belonged to one another/needed to support ( 1 Corinthians 12:15-17, Romans 12:4, Romans 15:3).

Not all in the Byzantine Empire treated the Syrian Jacobites, Copts, and Armenians in a harsh manner - just as not all whites misteated blacks during colonial days/slavery and the brutality of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade - for many were sympathetic/not wanting to see certain negatives occur. Likewise, not all Syrian Jacobites/Copts or Armenians were pure in their hearts/attitudes toward Byzantine folks since all men are human - and to demonize an entire group out of bitterness for being demonized would not be healthy.

And there were many who worked with the situation - knowing the Lord was Sovereign in the Byzantine Empire and the workings of those who were persecuted...and with others fleeing to Islam, there was understanding that God was in control/could use others in enemy territory to help the Saints. God did not forsake the Byzantine Empire/Byzantine Saints - nor did he abandon those who fled to Islamic domination for protection. It seems His Kingdom was taking shape in differing ways with all of the various events occuring and having saints on all sides - all being connected even when they didn't see it......


SOmetimes, help could come in radical ways no one would've predicted ...and prejudices can get in the way of seeing that.

It seems the same also occurred in scripture. I'm reminded of Biblical examples like Elijah going to the Widow of Zapareth in the land of Sidon I Kings 17 at the Lord's command when he was hiding out from his own people/King Ahab.

Elijah was directed to go to Zarephath where God had "commanded" for him even a more strange provisioner than the ravens. He chose to use a poor, almost starving widow, and she a Gentile....

The city of Sarepta (or Zarephath) was not only a heathen city, outside the bounds of Israel, midway between Sidon and Tyre, but actually within the domains of Jezebel's father. The prophet, who was not safe from Jezebel in Israel, would be safe within Jezebel's own country...as Ahab had been earnestly searching throughout his own land and in all neighboring countries (1 Kings 18 ). Hiding under the noise of his enemies, Elijah would be securely concealed in the land most hostile to Elijah's mission, and most friendly to Ahab's purposes. Cast out of his own country and by his own people, the story of Elijah makes clear that God can find a safe refuge for His servant in most unlikely circumstances......where most we might have expected it. That the hosting of Elijah was a distinguishing honor given to the Gentile widow----shows that God had purposes of glory beyond the bounds of Israel, 2 Kings 17:4, unbelieving as it was/pressumptious of its own status as God warned against ( Deuteronomy 9:4-6/ Deuteronomy 9 ) - in the language of Paul, that He was not the God of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles (Romans 3:28-30 / Romans 3 ). And with Elijah having to go to the jurisdiction of that city, which was inhabited by Gentiles, and God's providing for his prophet, first, by an unclean bird, and then by a Gentile, whom the Jews esteemed unclean,that all seemed to go as a type/preview of the calling of the Gentiles/ rejection of the Jews....as seen in Romans 11:3

And that event was actually referenced in Luke 4 when Christ spoke on the matter.

Reading Luke 4:14-28 with Jesus referencing Gentiles like Naaman the Syrian(from II Kings 5 - as he as from Damascus/Syria - at war with Israel at the time)) and the Widow from Sidon (as examples of others God favored) before the Jews in temple went from celebrating Him to wanting to kill him in an instance - perhaps Jesus was trying to give them the opportunity to see that they were prejudiced so that he could truly help them - for Jesus quoted Isaiah 60 to them and they cheered him on. But it'd make no difference speaking on Isaiah 60 with "The SPirit of the Soverign Lord is on me because the Lord has anointed me to preach good news to the poor".....having the crowd say "That's an awesome message!! Thank God for bringing us salvation"..and yet never being practical on it because they didn't see how Jesus's mission applied to the same people they said they didn't belong to. Didn't matter if they felt Gentiles oppressed them or harmed them (just like a lot of blacks feel in churches that despise all whites rather than wanting them to be a part of their services because they still blame all for what occurred with others - and think God's more concerned with them in their struggle rather than everyone...as one part of the body hurting means all hurt). Jesus wanted the people to see what God's mission was always meant to apply to - all believers - and to see how they were connected with Gentiles ...but they were upset because of their prejudices.

Just like the prophet Jonah ( 2 Kings 14:25 ) was when wanting all of Ninevah/Assyria(enemies of Israel, Nahum 3:1-4) - similar to having a Jewish man in New York during World War II hearing God say, ‘I’m going to bring terrible judgment on Germany and I want you to go to Berlin and tell Nazi Germany to repent..and that I love them" - but being embittered and, instead of doing it, heading for San Francisco and then hoping on a boat for Hong Kong...never realizing that he was just as corrupt in his actions as the people he may've felt did the same. Jonah had a big issue with prejudice in exalting his people's problems as being "worthy of mercy" - but thinking of Assyria as the same, with having others there who had families...struggles...and didn't know in many ways what was right just like the Hebrews had times of doing the same when they asked for God's Mercy - and I find myself being like Jonah when the Lord had to come to him/remind him that people are people and God loves them all ( Jonah 4:1-4 ).

And I was shocked when studying up on Eastern Christianity and discovering that the Assyrian Church of the East - one of the prominent Churches to spread Christiantiy in antiquity ( with remarkable missionary enterprise in Christian history, reaching to China, Mongolia, Korea, Japan and the Philippines ) and with people suffering IMMENSE persecution for Christ-- well they remembered what the Lord did with Assyria and helped to pave the way for them to preach the Gospel...and they were thankful how the Lord used Jonah to impact their ancestors. I really had to pause/think how much Jonah's prejudice may've cost.

There was an amazing research blog from an Orthodox perspective that addressed the beautiful aspects of the Assyrian Church of the East - as seen in East Meets East (as seen here). A LOT in Gospel history if he didn't stop to consider that the Assyrians were just as much a part of him as the Jews were - and that what happened to Ninevah would impact the Kingdom as well.

The reality is that every group has the potential for both GOOD and EVIL - and even with groups that've oppressed, they are also capable of being blessings....just as those oppressed are capable of oppressing.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I understand and appreciate your feelings and concerns, but referring to a mosque as satanic may be going a little too far.

These are some books that I am interested in reading to gain a fuller perspective on these issues:

Two Traditions, One Space: Orthodox Christians and Muslims in Dialogue: George C. Papademetriou: 9781935244066: Amazon.com: Books

Paths to the Heart: Sufism and the Christian East: James Cutsinger: 9780941532433: Amazon.com: Books.

The former sounds like a very intriguing read...as I have one on the issue that has been a good study.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

There are the converts who define their faith as Orthodox Christians in opposition to or even in resentment of their former faiths and cradle Orthodox who are still old world in their thinking and feel threatened by the religious pluralism of American society. Then again, there are many very traditional Orthodox Christians, even priests and monks, who are very tolerant of other faiths and see ALL spiritual truth as Orthodox, no matter where it comes from.

That's what I love about Father Tryphon at Our Merciful Savior Monastery on Vashon Island. He meets with Jewish rabbis, Muslim imams, Protestant ministers, etc. and doesn't hit them over the head with Orthodoxy. Instead, he looks at the life they live with the light they've been given. One can do this without compromising one's own beliefs, if one is comfortable enough in those beliefs. This might sound like a relativist way of thinking, only if your are unfamiliar with church history and how the fathers actually related to people outside our faith.

Amazing example that Father Tryphon gave and thanks for sharing what you did on it.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Going forward, the least the Turks could do is allow for Christians to have full rights to practice their faith within the city limits of Istanbul.

That may never happen if history is forgotten....

 

[Yoder777]

Amazing example that Father Tryphon gave and thanks for sharing what you did on it.

Before seeing his Facebook page, I wasn't aware that Father Tryphon had such a large following.

All Merciful Saviour Orthodox Monastery

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Before seeing his Facebook page, I wasn't aware that Father Tryphon had such a large following.

All Merciful Saviour Orthodox Monastery

Indeed. Although numbers do always mean significance, it's a blessing when you see good works endorsed in high numbers. And his work is very noteworthy...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Tens of thousands were killed....can't remember the numbers but they were in the hundred thousands. This was called the "Population Exchange" around the early to mid 1920's. I was never taught this in school, never heard about this, had no idea this even happened. We in the West aren't really taught this stuff. Only Nazism....Communism was taught, but nothing of all the Orthodox Christians and for that matter, all the people murdered under the Soviet Communist regime.

There is a lot of work being done to educate in certain places thankfully - as others are becoming more aware of the struggles Orthodoxy has had due to it becoming more visible to many in the West rather than hidden in their struggles. Sad to see so much senseless death occur - and forgotten...

 

[Yoder777]

The years of conflict between Greeks and Turks is so unfortunate, considering how similar they are culturally and ethnically. Religion has been the main dividing line between these two peoples, which is also unfortunate, considering how similar Greek Orthodoxy and Turkish Islam are at a mystical and liturgical level. In recent years, there have been steps toward peace, including Greece supporting Turkey's entrance into the European Union.

http://www.paulstravelblog.com/wp/?p=296

 

[Yoder777]

Has anyone heard of Hamza Yusuf, who converted from Greek Orthodoxy to Islam and is now a well known Islamic scholar?

Hamza Yusuf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The years of conflict between Greeks and Turks is so unfortunate, considering how similar they are culturally and ethnically. Religion has been the main dividing line between these two peoples, which is also unfortunate, considering how similar Greek Orthodoxy and Turkish Islam are at a mystical and liturgical level. In recent years, there have been steps toward peace, including Greece supporting Turkey's entrance into the European Union.

http://www.paulstravelblog.com/wp/?p=296

Thank Goodness for that. Hoping that the steps continue for more development..

 

[RobNJ]

More thread necromancy

 

[rusmeister]

More thread necromancy