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Mehmed the Conqueror and Gennadius II

Yoder777

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I do have a bit of bitterness of their history toward us.

If you've been following this thread from the beginning, you'll see that I once had a lot of bitterness over these issues. I too have Greek ancestors. Then again, I wasn't aware at the time that grave injustices were committed by both sides. If you look at the practices of Sufi mystics in modern day Turkey, perhaps you'll see that in terms of the inner experience of God, we have a lot in common. If you only look at political and dogmatic disputes, you won't see the common ground.
 
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Yeznik

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No, I am just asking who gave the Armenians more freedom, the Byzantines or Mehmed?
Mehmed may have given the Armenians more “freedom” in order to keep the Armenians and Greeks infighting so the Armenians and Greeks (and to some part Assyrians) would not unify. It wasn’t an action of benevolence but a political tool. The saying “My enemies enemy is my friend.” Please understand that the word freedom that you are using now doesn’t have the same meaning in the 15th century.
Comparatively, the Armenians, for hundreds of years, were able to fight for their kingdoms until the 10-11th which through depopulation and the murder of King Gagik II by the Byzantines opened the gateway to the east for the Turkish invasions.
 
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Yoder777

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Mehmed may have given the Armenians more “freedom” in order to keep the Armenians and Greeks infighting so the Armenians and Greeks (and to some part Assyrians) would not unify. It wasn’t an action of benevolence but a political tool. The saying “My enemies enemy is my friend.” Please understand that the word freedom that you are using now doesn’t have the same meaning in the 15th century.
Comparatively, the Armenians, for hundreds of years, were able to fight for their kingdoms until the 10-11th which through depopulation and the murder of King Gagik II by the Byzantines opened the gateway to the east for the Turkish invasions.

I appreciate your perspective. Thank you.
 
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Dorothea

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If you've been following this thread from the beginning, you'll see that I once had a lot of bitterness over these issues. I too have Greek ancestors. Then again, I wasn't aware at the time that grave injustices were committed by both sides. If you look at the practices of Sufi mystics in modern day Turkey, perhaps you'll see that in terms of the inner experience of God, we have a lot in common. If you only look at political and dogmatic disputes, you won't see the common ground.
I dropped political thinking for the most part, years ago. Like I said, I try to live Christ-like in loving all, no matter what their background or culture or religion is. Other than that, it seems to me that you would like me and others here to go even further on this issue. I don't think it's really the way to go. Promoting peace amongst people is fine, but to try and influence your Orthodox Christian brethren in their forum to go beyond that to a point, which almost seems a type of political, secular humanism, or relativism viewpoint, is a bit over the top.

I do not believe that looking at both sides that they equal out in bloodshed and injustice throughout history of the two (or the three groups vs. Ottoman and Islam), but I do recognize all have blood on their hands.
 
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Yoder777

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I dropped political thinking for the most part, years ago. Like I said, I try to live Christ-like in loving all, no matter what their background or culture or religion is. Other than that, it seems to me that you would like me and others here to go even further on this issue. I don't think it's really the way to go. Promoting peace amongst people is fine, but to try and influence your Orthodox Christian brethren in their forum to go beyond that to a point, which almost seems a type of political, secular humanism, or relativism viewpoint, is a bit over the top.

Eastern Orthodoxy in the United States can get very polemical sometimes. There are the converts who define their faith as Orthodox Christians in opposition to or even in resentment of their former faiths and cradle Orthodox who are still old world in their thinking and feel threatened by the religious pluralism of American society. Then again, there are many very traditional Orthodox Christians, even priests and monks, who are very tolerant of other faiths and see ALL spiritual truth as Orthodox, no matter where it comes from.

That's what I love about Father Tryphon at Our Merciful Savior Monastery on Vashon Island. He meets with Jewish rabbis, Muslim imams, Protestant ministers, etc. and doesn't hit them over the head with Orthodoxy. Instead, he looks at the life they live with the light they've been given. One can do this without compromising one's own beliefs, if one is comfortable enough in those beliefs. This might sound like a relativist way of thinking, only if your are unfamiliar with church history and how the fathers actually related to people outside our faith.

I say these things in all fairness and honesty and I am sorry to offend anyone. Jesus said "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." Shouldn't we do the same for people of other faiths? Shouldn't we look at the lives they live and their inner experience of God?
 
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Dorothea

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Eastern Orthodoxy in the United States can get very polemical sometimes. There are the converts who define their faith as Orthodox Christians in opposition to or even in resentment of their former faiths and cradle Orthodox who are still old world in their thinking and feel threatened by the religious pluralism of American society. Then again, there are many very traditional Orthodox Christians, even priests and monks, who are very tolerant of other faiths and see ALL spiritual truth as Orthodox, no matter where it comes from.

That's what I love about Father Tryphon at Our Merciful Savior Monastery on Vashon Island. He meets with Jewish rabbis, Muslim imams, Protestant ministers, etc. and doesn't hit them over the head with Orthodoxy. Instead, he looks at the life they live with the light they've been given. One can do this without compromising one's own beliefs, if one is comfortable enough in those beliefs. This might sound like a relativist way of thinking, only if your are unfamiliar with church history and how the fathers actually related to people outside our faith.

I say these things in all fairness and honesty and I am sorry to offend anyone. Jesus said "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." Shouldn't we do the same for people of other faiths? Shouldn't we look at the lives they live and their inner experience of God?
I admire and love Abbot Fr. Tryphon as well. And I have no problem with our elders/priests/bishops talking with people of other religions or of different Christian communities. One can do that and keep their beliefs and traditions just fine. I have been able to do so with my friends who range from Pagan (wican, pantheists), atheist, agnostic, evangelical Protestants, other Protestant sects, Roman Catholics, New Agers, Jews who practice their faith, and of course my Orthodox brethren.

I think we still must keep to the truth, but share it, as Fr. Tom Hopko says, in love.
 
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While Mehmed may not be considered a friend to the Orthodox, did he at least respect their right to worship as a conquered people?

Both yes and no. In theory, the conquered peoples were allowed to continue being Christians, but they would often be subjects to discrimination, or even attacks by fanatics. There have also been cases when the Turks tried to violently convert people to Islam, mostly during times of civilian uproar (before the successful revolution of 1821, there have been many failed revolutions many of which were started by priests and monks, like Archbishop of Kefalinia Dionysios the Philosopher).


Were Orthodox Christians treated better by Mehmed than native Americans were treated by white settlers?
Of course. They had some rights (not quite as many as Muslim converts had but...) and were not considered animals. As much as we hated each other, the Turks (and Mehmed in particular) admired greatly the Byzantine/Greek civilisation. After all, Mehmed was self proclaimed "Kaesari i Rum" meaning Ceaser of the Romans/Greeks.


And what are the religious rights of Christians in Turkey today?
Not very good. Just to give you an idea, the Greeks of Constantinople used to be over 120.000 in number during 1927 (and that was after the Pontian Greek genocide of World War I). Now, after discriminations and pogroms, they have been reduced to merely 4000.

As a Greek, I've been having the same problem as you, but what is done is done.
I suggest we try to improve our relationships as peoples, not keeping grudges, so that we can forgive and be forgiven.
After all that is the meaning of being a Christian to begin with.
 
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Yoder777

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I admire and love Abbot Fr. Tryphon as well. And I have no problem with our elders/priests/bishops talking with people of other religions or of different Christian communities. One can do that and keep their beliefs and traditions just fine. I have been able to do so with my friends who range from Pagan (wican, pantheists), atheist, agnostic, evangelical Protestants, other Protestant sects, Roman Catholics, New Agers, Jews who practice their faith, and of course my Orthodox brethren.

I think we still must keep to the truth, but share it, as Fr. Tom Hopko says, in love.

Yes, and we can see the truth that others may have without compromising our own. When Paul visited the Greeks, instead of condemning their faith, he said that the unknown God you seek has been Christ all along.

Recently, I came back to the church after a four year absence. I was a little apprehensive, based on my experience of Orhtodoxy in the past. One of the things a priest told me in coming back is that Orthodoxy is the highest truth, not the only truth. That gave me the reassurance to feel comfortable enough to come back again.
 
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Yoder777

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Both yes and no. In theory, the conquered peoples were allowed to continue being Christians, but they would often be subjects to discrimination, or even attacks by fanatics. There have also been cases when the Turks tried to violently convert people to Islam, mostly during times of civilian uproar (before the successful revolution of 1821, there have been many failed revolutions many of which were started by priests and monks, like Archbishop of Kefalinia Dionysios the Philosopher).



Of course. They had some rights (not quite as many as Muslim converts had but...) and were not considered animals. As much as we hated each other, the Turks (and Mehmed in particular) admired greatly the Byzantine/Greek civilisation. After all, Mehmed was self proclaimed "Kaesari i Rum" meaning Ceaser of the Romans/Greeks.



Not very good. Just to give you an idea, the Greeks of Constantinople used to be over 120.000 in number during 1927 (and that was after the Pontian Greek genocide of World War I). Now, after discriminations and pogroms, they have been reduced to merely 4000.

As a Greek, I've been having the same problem as you, but what is done is done.
I suggest we try to improve our relationships as peoples, not keeping grudges, so that we can forgive and be forgiven.
After all that is the meaning of being a Christian to begin with.

Thank you for your insightful and informative post. In posting about Islam, I am honestly trying to become more informed in order to help people, including myself, heal from past resentments.
 
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Yoder777

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It would've been nice if the Greeks were able to retake the Imperial capital and parts of Anatolia, but they lost so there's nothing that can be done about it.

Going forward, the least the Turks could do is allow for Christians to have full rights to practice their faith within the city limits of Istanbul.
 
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WisdomTree

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Going forward, the least the Turks could do is allow for Christians to have full rights to practice their faith within the city limits of Istanbul.

That'll be nice and the right direction if Turkey ever want to become part of the EU. Though our faiths have been separated for a millenium, I can only sympathesize for you and your fellow Orthodox brethren for all the trials they had to go through.

By the way, how likely is it that a mosque will be built in Athens any time soon? The Turks would hopefully see that as a diplomatic gesture.

That'll be a disgrace, if they want a mosque in Athens, they should first restore the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople and allow the apostolic see of Antioch (all five of them) to return to Antioch!
 
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That'll be a disgrace, if they want a mosque in Athens, they should first restore the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople and allow the apostolic see of Antioch (all five of them) to return to Antioch!
I'm afraid I have to agree with Wisdom on this one.
If they admit the genocide of the Pontian Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians, and start respecting the minorities' rights (whether they are Greeks, Armenians or Kurds) then I would gladly forget all our grudges and would be happy to see a hundred mosques being built. But as long as they remain that aggressive, I don't see why we should encourage them and allow them to have yet more influence on our (or any) country.

It would've been nice if the Greeks were able to retake the Imperial capital and parts of Anatolia, but they lost so there's nothing that can be done about it.

It is true that losing Constantinople hurt us a lot as a nation and created a lot of problems concerning our national identity (people still argue whether we are Hellenes, Romans, Greeks or Byzantines and all these other rubbish) and reclaiming it was a dream of the Greeks for a long time. However, it was a dream that caused much bloodshed and that is why I believe we should put it to rest. I still admire the last Emperor Constantine Palaiologos (and cry when I read his final words in the history books) and I still feel honored of my byzantine heritage but I do not wish for it to be a cause of warfare. Besides, there are no Greeks anymore there, so why would we want this to happen anyway?

It is better to remember and honour our dead (from Emperor Palaiologos to all the people who died during the genocides of WW1) instead of avenging them. And let us also keep in mind that the Greeks have also committed atrocities themselves (not to mention that we have made a lot of mistakes that led to our defeat in the Asia Minor campaign)
 
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Are the majority of Muslims in Athens of Turkish descent? I am sorry if it seems like I ask stupid or agitating questions, since I am honestly learning about these things.

No... they are illegal immigrants from Pakistan, Syria, Iraq etc all sent here by Turkey (their eventual destination is Germany and other lands of Europe but they have to pass through Greece first and a good deal of them get stack here) It is said they are about 10% of the population now, but they do not really wish to stay here. They view Greece as a "station" if you know what I mean. Problem is that they are treated like animals by the systems that are trafficking them, are targeted by neo-nazis (the Golden Dawn party) and a good deal of them turns to crime.

When it comes to permanent residents, most are Greek (94%), and there are a few immigrants from Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria and other Balkan countries but they are leaving too now, dew to lack of jobs (the debt crisis has struck hard)
 
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Yoder777

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No... they are illegal immigrants from Pakistan, Syria Iraq etc all sent here by Turkey (their eventual destination is Germany and other lands of Europe but they have to pass through Greece first and a good deal of them get stack here) It is said they are about 10% of the population now, but they do not really wish to stay here. They view Greece as a "station" if you know what I mean.

What harm would it cause if they were to build a mosque in Athens? In 2006, if I am not mistaken, church officials showed support of there being a mosque and the government approved it.
 
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What harm would it cause if they were to build a mosque in Athens? In 2006, if I am not mistaken, church officials showed support of there being a mosque and the government approved it.

Well, you might be right. I guess that our history has left us with some short of prejudice against Muslims and it seems to be effecting my thinking at times. But it's only natural: Since the 7th century A.D. we 've been fighting against Arab invaders, in the 15th century we were conquered by the Ottomans, from 1453 to 1821 we've been constantly revolting against them and since we became an independent state again we've been fighting with the Turks up until WW1. After all those things it's probably natural to feel so negative about building a mosque. But as Christians and human beings, we should probably respect their right to worship.

As for the harm it MIGHT bring, there is always the possibility that Turkey starts pretending to be the protector of the Muslim minorities and starts interfering with our country's policies. But that is just a possibility and judging by our current state, things couldn't get much worse anyway.
 
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Yoder777

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Well, you might be right. I guess that our history has left us with some short of prejudice against Muslims and it seems to be effecting my thinking at times. But it's only natural: Since the 7th century A.D. we 've been fighting against Arab invaders, in the 15th century we were conquered by the Ottomans, from 1453 to 1821 we've been constantly revolting against them and since we became an independent state again we've been fighting with the Turks up until WW1. After all those things it's probably natural to feel so negative about building a mosque. But as Christians and human beings, we should probably respect their right to worship.

As for the harm it MIGHT bring, there is always the possibility that Turkey starts pretending to be the protector of the Muslim minorities and starts interfering with our country's policies. But that is just a possibility and judging by our current state, things couldn't get much worse anyway.

I understand your feelings. As you are probably aware, Americans showed the same apprehension about having a mosque built at Ground Zero. I don't have an opinion about there being a mosque in Athens either way, yet I find it interesting that church officials and state officials at least initially showed support of it. With contemporary Greece in such economic disarray, perhaps now is not the right time to build this mosque.
 
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