Mehmed the Conqueror and Gennadius II

[Yoder777]

The area was overwhelmingly christian. There were jews and actually some of them converted. I forgot the name, but there was a rabbi who was believed to have been the promised messiah. When he converted to Islam many of his jewish followers also converted. But the area was overwhelmigly christian, all albanians were christians at that time. Bosnian muslims were Serbs, but once they converted the serbs would not refer to them as serbian muslims. Same with the greeks, being muslim and being turkish was synonomous. If a greek converted to Islam he no longer was of the dhimmi Roum.

So you are saying that the majority of people in modern-day Turkey are the descendents of Christians, not polytheists? This really is news to me.

 

[buzuxi02]

Are you saying that the Anatolian people were primarily Christians?

Yes, Anatolia was the name for what is today called Turkey. It was also synonymous with Asia Minor. Anatolians at the time of the Ottomon were all christians.

 

[buzuxi02]

So you are saying that the majority of people in modern-day Turkey are the descendents of Christians, not polytheists? This really is news to me.

Really or are you putting me on? Many believe Anatolia meant the land of hatti. Meaning the ancient hitites that lived there in 3000bc. But this was lost, by the time of Alexander the Great, it was named Anatole, simply because its the greek word for 'east'

 

[Yoder777]

Really or are you putting me on? Many believe Anatolia meant the land of hatti. Meaning the ancient hitites that lived there in 3000bc. But this was lost, by the time of Alexander the Great, it was named Anatole, simply because its the greek word for 'east'

I honestly believed that the majority of people in modern-day Turkey are the descendents of polytheists, not Christians. I am still researching this topic in order to know for sure what to believe.

 

[buzuxi02]

Many people visiting Turkey as tourists actuallly go there for a christian pilgrimage. Google Goreme open air museum. Its a section of Cappadocia preserved as a former 'christian monastic oasis" The entire region used to be monasteries and churches carved into caves. Smyrna (Izmir) was 60% christian in 1920, the Turks refered to it as infidel Izmir. The 7 Churches mentioned in Revelation are tourist sites laying in ruin.

 

[Adaephon]

Many people visiting Turkey as tourists actuallly go there for a christian pilgrimage..

Or to do something tacky like rent the entire city of Ephesus.

 

[Dorothea]

Let me give you a different perspective. If a German or even Germany denied the Holocaust, should the Jews sweep it under the rug since it happened a long time ago? Would you as a person be okay with another person who would deny the Holocaust?
In regards to “white guilt”, the issue with the Turks is denial for nearly a hundred years.


Generally bad, you can’t use Istanbul as the measuring stick for the rest of the country.
I don’t think you understand difference between killing and genocide. The Turks committed genocide.
Genocide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural.
This means to completely wipe out every man, women and child regardless of age.

I agree with you. And it wasn't until a few years ago I learned about the horrid atrocities that happened to the Pontic Greeks and those around the area, including those you mentioned - Armenians and Assyrians. Tens of thousands were killed....can't remember the numbers but they were in the hundred thousands. This was called the "Population Exchange" around the early to mid 1920's. I was never taught this in school, never heard about this, had no idea this even happened. We in the West aren't really taught this stuff. Only Nazism....Communism was taught, but nothing of all the Orthodox Christians and for that matter, all the people murdered under the Soviet Communist regime.

 

[WisdomTree]

Or to do something tacky like rent the entire city of Ephesus.

What are the modern names for the ancient Christian centres or apostolic sees?

 

[E.C.]

Yosser,

A few years ago the priest of my former parish and his wife went on a cruise to Constantinople and the Black Sea. During the Byzantine times there was a monastery called Stoudios which was basically like the Yankee Stadium or Wrigley Field of Orthodox monasticism. Today, it is a ruin that is fenced off and overgrown with a Turkish Army soldier guarding the place to keep people out.
My priest and his wife, after a two hour cab ride, were able to find the place. They went inside of what ruins are left and were kicked out when they ran into the guard. The guard was yelling at them and a crowd of onlookers quickly formed. An Armenian, who could tell they were American and if in that area clearly Orthodox, went up to my priest and his wife saying, "A cab will be here in two minutes. You will get into the cab. You will not return here because if you do than life will be difficult for the Christians in this neighborhood".

That is an example of the xenophobia that is modern Turkey.


Now, ethnically speaking the other posters here are correct: The real Turks are in the part of the world we call Central Asia or "The Stans" because of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, etc. Those people are the real Turks. The "Turks" of Turkey are ethnically the descendents of mostly Greeks, Armenians and Kurds. There language, however, is from Central Asia.

Something of note about the people of the Eastern Mediterranean: religion and identity go hand in hand. It is a foreign idea there to be, say, Armenian and not Orthodox just like it is a foreign idea here in the States to be, say, from Utah and not Mormon. Most of today's "Turks" in Turkey are descendants from Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians who call themselves Turkish, became Muslim and adopted the language so that they could not pay a few hundred extra bucks in taxes and not be killed when the fanatical Turks come knocking on the door.
That being said, there was a few years ago, a quasi-celebration in Trabzon of Turks who were celebrating the Greek culture that was in Trabzon until the 1920s. Turks who were descendents of Greeks actually wore lapel pins and ties that had Byzantine eagles on them. The celebration went on for an hour and a half until people started singing in Greek and shouting Greek Orthodox phrases like "Christ have mercy!" and it was then quickly shut down.


I will tell you something right now: Turkey will never join the EU because Turkey will never truly adopt the human rights demanded of her by the EU. I do believe one thing though; the day Turkey adopts, implements and allows basic human rights for all of the people in Turkey will be the day when we will see millions begin their return to Orthodoxy.

 

[Yoder777]

I agree with you. And it wasn't until a few years ago I learned about the horrid atrocities that happened to the Pontic Greeks and those around the area, including those you mentioned - Armenians and Assyrians. Tens of thousands were killed....can't remember the numbers but they were in the hundred thousands. This was called the "Population Exchange" around the early to mid 1920's.

Let me please remind you again that the mass killing happened between both sides.

 

[buzuxi02]

What are the modern names for the ancient Christian centres or apostolic sees?

Constantinople- Istanbul (actually broken greek from "estin poli" meanin 'into the city')

Ephesus- Efes
Smyrna- Izmir
Pergamos- Bergama
Thyatira- Akhisar
Sardis- Sart
Philadelphia- Alashehier
Laodicea- Laodikya
Tarsus- Tarshish (they still try to pronounce it phonetically as Tarsus to keep the christian tourists happy)

Nicea- Iznik
Myra- Demre (Turks may change the name back if they can market it as santa claus hometown to attract the western tourists)

 

[WisdomTree]

Constantinople- Istanbul (actually broken greek from "estin poli" meanin 'into the city')

Ephesus- Efes
Smyrna- Izmir
Pergamos- Bergama
Thyatira- Akhisar
Sardis- Sart
Philadelphia- Alashehier
Laodicea- Laodikya
Tarsus- Tarshish (they still try to pronounce it phonetically as Tarsus to keep the christian tourists happy)

Nicea- Iznik
Myra- Demre (Turks may change the name back if they can market it as santa claus hometown to attract the western tourists)

Thanks!

It's sad to see all these former Christian centres lose their identity... Nothing can be done about it due to the right of conquest I guess...

 

[buzuxi02]

Wisdom,

You are pretty much correct. Turkey also teaches a history that keeps the natives kind of like zombies. Meaning they have no idea that all these archaeological wonders and all these temples are part of their immediate heritage. Its usually taught that they are "roman" ruins who occupied the area but after there numbers dwindled they came in to live there.

Atleast many of the frescoes which are some of the most unique paintings in the world have been partially preserved. While many in the Turish ranks were ignorant, the Sultans saw the beauty of these icons, so when he converted the churches to mosques he immediately covered them up with plaster s they wont be desecrated.

If you go on the Goreme air museum website, you will notice that most of the frescoes are well preserved, but parts of the faces are erased or the eyes on all the saints are gouged out. This is because the Turks were afraid of beng cursed by the 'evil eye' and scrubbed the eyes off the icons.

 

[Yoder777]

Are the Turkish people a happy people?

 

[WisdomTree]

Are the Turkish people a happy people?

I would assume so...

 

[Yoder777]

I would assume so...

I assume that living in Turkey is very different than, for example, living under the Taliban.

According to this survey, Turkey is the third least happy country, while Orthodox Russia is the second least happy:
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/de...key-is-the-3rd-least-happy-country-2006-02-13

 

[Dorothea]

Let me please remind you again that the mass killing happened between both sides.

I didn't read there were killings "on both sides" in those small towns in the Pontic area, nor the Smyrna area. What I read is Turkish armies came in and burned Orthodox Churches with people inside, chopped off the hand of one of the bishops there who stayed to watch over his frightened flock, when he was giving the soldier a blessing, and the death marches. I don't know where and when the Assyrians, Greeks, and Armenians fought back. Didn't read that they had. I will admit that this book was about a Greek Pontic woman's life and her family's life during this time and she reported what she saw and what the newspapers said the other countries were doing about it....nothing much, it seemed.

 

[Yeznik]

[FONT=&quot]If that is true, and I am not doubting that it is, what were the main causes of them converting from Christianity to Islam?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1) If a person didn’t convert to Islam they would have probably died by the sword. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2) [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]2)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]Marginal Christians got tired of the infighting between Christian Greeks, Assyrian and Armenians and though it easier to convert to Islam and get ahead. [/FONT]

 

[Yoder777]

I didn't read there were killings "on both sides" in those small towns in the Pontic area, nor the Smyrna area. What I read is Turkish armies came in and burned Orthodox Churches with people inside, chopped off the hand of one of the bishops there who stayed to watch over his frightened flock, when he was giving the soldier a blessing, and the death marches. I don't know where and when the Assyrians, Greeks, and Armenians fought back. Didn't read that they had. I will admit that this book was about a Greek Pontic woman's life and her family's life during this time and she reported what she saw and what the newspapers said the other countries were doing about it....nothing much, it seemed.

We should understand that there was killing between both sides, as there was a bitter civil war going on at the time. Greek soldiers would go into Turkish villages, indescriminately killing civilians, and when they had to retreat, they had a scorched earth policy, destroying everything they could on the way back.

 

[Dorothea]

We should understand that there was killing between both sides, as there was a bitter civil war going on at the time. Greek soldiers would go into Turkish villages, indescriminately killing civilians, and when they had to retreat, they had a scorched earth policy, destroying everything they could on the way back.

Well, I wouldn't doubt that. Yes, I have some personal feelings on the issue seeing how my mom is Greek and her family is and went through all they did in their history, but also my priest's wife's family is from Smryna and went through the "population exchange." Having said that, I hold no ill will or prejudice to today's Muslims and Turks as individual human beings made in His Image. I do have a bit of bitterness of their history toward us.

As far as killing on both sides. No ethnic or group of people in whatever religion or culture are totally innocent. Blood is on everyone's hands, and still today, we are responsible for what happens in this world through our actions, whether they are good and holy or sinful and cruel.