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Meaning: "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church"

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by OrthodoxyUSA, Aug 3, 2017.

Is the meaning static as defined by those who wrote it or are we free to reinterpret it as we see f

  1. Static

    18 vote(s)
    72.0%
  2. Free to interpret

    7 vote(s)
    28.0%
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  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Love your avatar.
     
  2. JRichard68

    JRichard68 There is too much butter on those trays

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    Let me ask you a question - when you "became" a Christian, were you asked any questions? Did you declare your faith? - repeat a prayer? - testimony of any kind? When/if you were baptized, did you have to make any kind of declaration? Are you a member of any church, or do you just "attend"? If you are a member, were you accepted by any process? Asked to affirm a 'statement of faith'? If you've read the 'statement of faith' for the church you attend, do you agree with it? Does it "line up" with what you believe?

    If none of the above matters, have you talked with your pastor about it? Oh, that's right, you're not required to since God puts NO CONFIDENCE in men. Besides, if you did, he might take exception to you pointing out that the 'statement of faith' is a creed and should be ignored.

    Just sayin'...

    Counterpoint - Cats Rule! :oldthumbsup:
     
  3. Apex

    Apex Radical Centrist & Ethicist

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    We know other letters existed (e.g. 1 Corinthians 5:9), we just don't know what happened to them. It is likely that the high expense of copying was a primary factor for many not being persevered properly. As for their relevance, some would have been incredibly helpful for us to still have. If we had the other letters Paul wrote to the Corinthians, we would be able to better understand the two letters we do have. Also, the reverse is true. Just look at 2 John and 3 John. There isn't much there that isn't already in 1 John. They were only persevered because they were written by John and because they were cheap to copy, not because of their content.
     
  4. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    I use the same technique. It's sometimes helpful in drawing people out.
     
  5. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    Both.
     
  6. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    If that were the case, Paul was wrong on several counts, firstly in his rebuke of Peter.
     
  7. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Were they expensive or cheap to copy? You made both claims. The epistles of Paul some of which are very long, we have ample manuscript evidence.

    Of course they were copied for their content. These were letters from an apostle.
     
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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  9. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    How many churches are named in the NT? What are their names?
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
  10. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I hope you don't feel I've been picking on you. What subjects do you teach?

    There's a lightbulb joke about change and The Orthodox Church.

    Forgive me...
     
  11. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    Ya, ya. We get it, you don't change anything.

    How many Catholics does it take to change a light bulb?

    None. They always use candles.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
  12. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Don't forget to vote at the top of the page.

    Forgive me...
     
  13. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Are you chiding me?

    Some things have changed.
    Christians came out of the catacombs and tombs into public worship after it became legal.
    The creed was "developed" into a fuller statement.
    Services are shorter and spread over a year.
    Bishops don't get married anymore.
    Whole written languages were created so that communities could have written copies of the materials they needed.
    Confession is no longer done in front of everyone.
    Tithing is not mandated but rather optional at the Bishop's discretion.

    Most of those changes were done in the first few centuries.

    Forgive me...
     
  14. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    No. Banter, and a joke. Fun stuff.
     
  15. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That was not the point of view of the authors of the creed.

    So did you vote that it's free to interpretation?

    Forgive me...
     
  16. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    What writings of the original authors do we have for confirmation of meaning?
     
  17. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm going to start using smileys again. Some things just don't come across they way we want them to.

    Forgive me...
     
  18. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    I have an avatar that permanently helps makes the point.
     
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  19. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not my usual source, but the text is the same.

    http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._Vol_14_The_Seven_Ecumenical_Councils,_EN.pdf

    Here is an interesting snip;

    THOSE who from heresy turn to orthodoxy, and to the portion of those who are being saved, we receive according to the following method and custom: Arians, and Macedonians, and Sabbatians, and Novatians, who call themselves Cathari or Aristori, and Quarto-decimans or Tetradites, and Apollinarians, we receive, upon their giving a written renunciation [of their errors] and anathematize every heresy which is not in accordance with the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God. Thereupon, they are first sealed or anointed with the holy oil upon the forehead, eyes, nostrils, mouth, and ears; and when we seal them, we say, “The Seal of the gift of the Holy Ghost.” But Eunomians, who are baptized with only one immersion, and Montanists, who are here called Phrygians, and Sabellians, who teach the identity of Father and Son, and do sundry other mischievous things, and [the partisans of] all other heresies—for there are many such here, particularly among those who come from the country of the Galatians:—all these, when they desire to turn to orthodoxy, we receive as heathen. On the first day we make them Christians; on the second, catechumens; on the third, we exorcise them by breathing thrice in their face and ears; and thus we instruct them and oblige them to spend some time in the Church, and to hear the Scriptures; and then we baptize them. (Making them members of The Church)

    Forgive me...
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
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  20. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    From the Orthodox point of view... not being a member of "The Church" yet is not a problem so long as you are a Christian (professing belief in Christ as the Son of God and denouncing Satan and his Angels) and moving in the right direction.

    From a Protestant point of view (I used to be one) it's troubling when someone tells you you're not in The Church.

    Don't be troubled. Nobody doubts your salvation. We don't even see salvation in the same way. Nobody is condemning you, except the fire and brimstone preachers of your past.

    You've likely been told at one time or another that you can't be saved if your not in The Church. Or that if you are saved... you're in The Church.
    Foolishness and utter rubbish. Christ God saves whom he will.

    Forgive me...
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
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