Meaning: "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church"

[Ken Rank]

I hope you don't feel I've been picking on you. What subjects do you teach?

There's a lightbulb joke about change and The Orthodox Church.

Forgive me...

Not at all... actually, if my silence was a cause for concern... I went away this weekend to a wedding. Brother, I don't care so much if we don't see eye to eye on every detail. We both believe Yeshua did what he did and rose in 3 days, ascended, and through that death has lost it's sting for those who come in faith. We might differ on how our community might be run, or what decrees might or might not be solid.... but the core foundation of the faith draws us together as brothers and as part of the same one body. So as long as we aren't name calling... us not agreeing doesn't bother me unless one of us starts to demean the Father or draw others from Him. Which... we are not... we just don't agree on some history and perhaps on how some authority was given post ascension. But we'll figure that all out one day.

 

[Ken Rank]

Ken, your in my thread and belittling me. So run along now. You're on ignore.

I didn't belittle you in ANY way... why would you think that? I simply took another position than you have. But by NO MEANS would I have demeaned you, called you names... we simply don't agree.

But, it is "your thread" and apparently not open to anyone who doesn't agree with you. I will "run along now."

Peace.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I didn't belittle you in ANY way... why would you think that? I simply took another position than you have. But by NO MEANS would I have demeaned you, called you names... we simply don't agree.

But, it is "your thread" and apparently not open to anyone who doesn't agree with you. I will "run along now."

Peace.

"Between you and God" is a jab.

 

[Ken Rank]

Do you accept or reject the general consensus of the Church Fathers before the canon of Scripture?

Some things, not all. Why would I just accept all? We have the Word of God and His Spirit to guide us. I get the need for bylaws and decrees in some situations as the ability to function within a community, which is God's will, often needs tweaks based on the goals and personal of and in that group. But I don't accept all views of the church fathers.... beyond what is written in the NT.

 

[Ken Rank]

"Between you and God" is a jab.

Absolutely NOT... what it means is, you don't answer to ME.... if you believe the rapture could happen at any moment and are convinced of that, then that is between you and your God... YOUR GOD. Why YOUR? Because it is YOUR relationship, YOUR Covenant, YOUR walk.... YOU answer for YOU you don't answer to me. And if WE disagree... then it doesn't matter because we don't ultimately give an account to each other. I can see why I should have said, "God" but I was trying to make a point that didn't go over as intended. Sorry for the confusion.

I will leave your thread. Shalom.

 

[Anand Prabhu Antony]

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter”.

Tradition by written Letters or by mouth is same according to St. Paul. So, where is this concept of new sacred tradition of the catholic church, which does not bind with written tradition(Apostle Letters). St. Paul says hold to the tradition, the tradition which is in the New Testament letters.

I meant, that Sacred tradition is already given in the scripture, so no need a tradition that comes away from the Scripture.

Apostles gave the Apostolic traditions to people by mouth and written Letters. Now we don’t have the oral tradition from the mouth of Apostles, but we have the written letters. So, we can follow the apostolic tradition from their letters itself.

The supporting words of St.Paul that’s says about Apostolic tradition is mentioned in 1Corinthians 11:2; 2Thessalonians 3:6. Also Paul warns about man made traditions in Colossians 2:8.

1 Corinthians 4:6 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
“…you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another”.

St. Paul asking those people not to go beyond what they received in written letters , so that they won’t go against another with fight .

Today different believes and faiths are already there among catholic denomination christians. They follow many belief systems, because they are satisfied with what they do. Apostolic traditions from the Scripture teaches something, denomination christians follows something.

Apostolic traditions from their letters regulates us How to believe!?, What to believe? and explains about The Faith. But, in the name of some belief quotes a verse from the old Testament to suit their actions is no use. Its just same like prosperity gospel preachers who quotes from old testament to justify their speech.

The wrong things in denominational church beliefs have grown up, its difficult to rectify everything since it has evolved of politics, and envy on other denominational churches.

An Individual Christ following Christian will welcome anyone, who puts His faith in Christ alone. He will testify about Christ for others salvation.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter”.

Tradition by written Letters or by mouth is same according to St. Paul. So, where is this concept of new sacred tradition of the catholic church, which does not bind with written tradition(Apostle Letters). St. Paul says hold to the tradition, the tradition which is in the New Testament letters.

Are you saying that all practices and their instructions were written into the NT?

Forgive me...

 

[Albion]

Yes, but it is still a creed made by man... perhaps (and usually) based on interpretation of Scripture, but still from man.

This is certainly true. And those non-Catholic churches which subscribe to it, such as mine and the Lutherans, do so only because they consider it to be correct and Scriptural, not because of some theory that it must be infallible, given by the hand of God, or some such.

 

[Ken Rank]

This is certainly true. And those non-Catholic churches which subscribe to it, such as mine and the Lutherans, do so only because they consider it to be correct and Scriptural, not because of some theory that it must be infallible, given by the hand of God, or some such.

And I don't fault or judge you for subscribing to it. We are bound by what Messiah did and our faith in Him.... not as much by the details of our doctrine as we might think. That isn't to say doctrine isn't important because it is... and we should all seek sound doctrine. But the idea that we will all see eye to eye on all the minutia that becomes part of our teaching is a fairly tale... we'll see eye to eye when we stand in the Kingdom. Until then... mutual respect and understanding is the way to go among brothers.

 

[Albion]

I think we agree on that, and it's one of the reasons I'm happy as an Anglican. That's not to say there aren't loons among us, as in any church body, but the statements of faith, including the Nicene Creed, tend towards defining the essentials and not the optionals. By contrast, there are denominations which do insist upon taking a stand on just about anything that can be thought of.

 

[JRichard68]

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter”.

Tradition by written Letters or by mouth is same according to St. Paul.

Can you show where this was his intent? How many letters? How many 'words'?

So, where is this concept of new sacred tradition of the catholic church, which does not bind with written tradition(Apostle Letters). St. Paul says hold to the tradition, the tradition which is in the New Testament letters.

First, sacred tradition is not merely the purview of the (C)atholic church. Others hold to it as well. Second, you've just said that "tradition by written letters or by mouth is the same". Now it's not?

I meant, that Sacred tradition is already given in the scripture, so no need a tradition that comes away from the Scripture.

Okay, thanks for clarifying. So when Paul stated "hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter", he actually meant "only by letter". Got it.

Apostles gave the Apostolic traditions to people by mouth and written Letters. Now we don’t have the oral tradition from the mouth of Apostles, but we have the written letters. So, we can follow the apostolic tradition from their letters itself.

So your stance is that it's not possible that any type of Apostolic tradition (beyond letter) was handed down from the time of the Apostles or immediately after. Am I correct?

The supporting words of St.Paul that’s says about Apostolic tradition is mentioned in 1Corinthians 11:2; 2Thessalonians 3:6. Also Paul warns about man made traditions in Colossians 2:8.

Let's just take Colossians 2:8:

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

Can you point me to where, in the Nicene creed, there is evidence of "philosophy, vain deceit, traditions of men, or rudiments of the world" or that the principles are "not after Christ"?

1 Corinthians 4:6 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
“…you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another”.

St. Paul asking those people not to go beyond what they received in written letters , so that they won’t go against another with fight .

No. he's warning them not to go beyond what is written in the scriptures as there appears to be some spiritual pride and leaders boasting in their positions. This doesn't appear to be an appeal to strict adherence to scripture only, as he states elsewhere to hold to traditions received by letter or word.

Apostolic traditions from their letters regulates us How to believe!?, What to believe? and explains about The Faith. But, in the name of some belief quotes a verse from the old Testament to suit their actions is no use. Its just same like prosperity gospel preachers who quotes from old testament to justify their speech.

You've done the same thing - using verses out of context, and making conclusions about what Paul actually said instead of what he did say.

The wrong things in denominational church beliefs have grown up, its difficult to rectify everything since it has evolved of politics, and envy on other denominational churches.

This is not only true of "denominational churches". Politics and envy are present in Evangelical and non-denominational churches, too.

An Individual Christ following Christian will welcome anyone, who puts His faith in Christ alone. He will testify about Christ for others salvation.

I agree. But this isn't an end in itself.

 

[SolomonVII]

I didn't belittle you in ANY way... why would you think that? I simply took another position than you have. But by NO MEANS would I have demeaned you, called you names... we simply don't agree.

But, it is "your thread" and apparently not open to anyone who doesn't agree with you. I will "run along now."

Peace.

It is a disappointment if you do leave this thread.
Some of your posts here I found very stimulating reading. Your sense of history of the period in question is somewhat similar to the sense of history that I have garnered from my own readings of that era myself.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Actually, the canon was chosen by 200AD... and in 90AD the "Christians" went to Yavney where the Jewish authorities met and compared what we call the OT to what they had to see if it matched... which it did by the way. Now, none of this is saying that those involved in the counsels you seem to be drawn to were bad men or didn't belong to God... but I will say this.... Christianity through around 134AD (the Bar Kokhba Revolt) had a more Jewish face. After that, a more Greek face.... and decrees were passed that were designed to make us appear less Jewish. Not meeting on a Saturday required a counsel decision to make it official (this long before Constantine made it a civil law) or a decree saying not to eat the food of the Jews.[\quote]

In fairness, they also passed decrees distancing themselves from us. I run a list of things they have said and done that were a reaction to us or Yeshua himself. This all needs to stop and we need to just be in tune with God's will. That is where I am... if you aren't, that is between you and God and I do not seek to cause you to see it my way. Have a blessed day.

I read part of the thread but was confused as to who 'us' and 'them' are/were?

 

[Anand Prabhu Antony]

Are you saying that all practices and their instructions were written into the NT?

Forgive me...

Dear elder brother,
What practices and their instructions which you follow is not written into the NT?

 

[Anand Prabhu Antony]

To: JRichard68,
Can you absolutely claim that catholic church not following a single wrong practise away from the Scripture?

So your stance is that it's not possible that any type of Apostolic tradition (beyond letter) was handed down from the time of the Apostles or immediately after. Am I correct?"

St. Paul gives the answer:
Galatians 1:8-9
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed".

Wether you have some added tradition in the name of early church fathers, St. Paul will judge them for their actions on the Judgement day.

Romans 16:17
"I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned".

2Thesolonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

1Corinthians 4:6
"..learn not to exceed what is written,"

You replied me saying,

"he's warning them not to go beyond what is written in the scriptures as there appears to be some spiritual pride and leaders boasting in their positions. This doesn't appear to be an appeal to strict adherence to scripture only, as he states elsewhere to hold to traditions received by letter or word".

Brother division comes because of not strictly adhered to scripture. So, st.Paul asking not to go beyond taking new added tradition, teachings etc

This is not only true of "denominational churches". Politics and envy are present in Evangelical and non-denominational churches, too.

Ya, but I meant why it's difficult to rectify in catholic denomination because the wrong things had grown up. People will stumble and will leave the denomination, if they rectify wrong things. The religious heads are rulers and have powers like worldly rulers. Whereas, Apostles were martyrs and strangers to this world.

2Corinthians 6:16-18
"what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
"Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.
"And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.

God bless you.

 

[Paidiske]

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