Meaning: "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church"

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed - OrthodoxWiki

Forgive me...

 

[1stcenturylady]

And surely the Holy Spirit is not telling different things to different people.

Forgive me...

Exactly!

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Exactly!

Forgive me...

 

[1stcenturylady]

Forgive me...

The Word does not contradict itself. Does that make more sense?

 

[Hal A Peno]

What's wrong with argument? You're in the Theology section.

Forgive me...

Argument is good as it provides both sides of an issue. However, I don't see that you started the thread looking for an argument anyway.

 

[Hal A Peno]

Grace is dispensed by God not a sacrament, and as to church attendance Catholics and Orthodox are just a bad as any one else. I know one person who is Orthodox and only goes to church about three times a year.

Sacraments are a means of seeking God's grace. The early church had several rituals and traditions. I don't see anything wrong with them.

 

[Hal A Peno]

I have no real problem with the Nicene Creed as a statement of faith ( that of it's original purpose ) but I do have a real problem with it being equated with scripture.

What is it that conflicts with scripture???

We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;
of the same essence as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and was made human.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried.
The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life.
He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and to life in the world to come. Amen.

 

[1stcenturylady]

What is it that conflicts with scripture???

We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;
of the same essence as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and was made human.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried.
The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life.
He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and to life in the world to come. Amen.

Sounds good to me and scriptural. The Body of Christ is one body, not many, but with many parts - eyes, ears, etc.

 

[Thedictator]

What is it that conflicts with scripture???

We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;
of the same essence as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and was made human.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried.
The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life.
He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and to life in the world to come. Amen.

Well for one The Word of God never called the Church Catholic of Apostolic.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Well for one The Word of God never called the Church Catholic of Apostolic.

Some translations use the word Catholic meaning unified, as in one body, that is why it was used. Apostolic just refers to the writings of the apostles, our New Testament. So all denominations are of the one body of Christ. Nothing to argue over.

 

[SolomonVII]

Static.
The truth is one. That is what 'Catholic' means. It is like gravity where the same gravity applies to us all. Such is God. He is the same God for everybody, and alternate beliefs in God are as ludicrous as optional beliefs concerning gravity.

I suppose you are free to believe in gravity as you would like, but be careful about your interpretations on what gravity is as you get closer to the cliff.

Spiritual truths are no less real than the truth of gravity. Lack of proper understanding does not mean that the consequences of that lack of understanding will be any different. We are all obliged to heed the same spiritual truths too.

 

[DamianWarS]

What is it that conflicts with scripture???

We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;
of the same essence as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and was made human.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried.
The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life.
He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and to life in the world to come. Amen.

why is "καθολικὴν" (catholic) not translated instead it is just anglicized?

 

[redleghunter]

They were included mostly because they were preserved better than others letters. Sadly, not all letters that were penned by the Apostles, read aloud, and even copied were preserved well enough to see their inclusion in the early church canonical lists. We know that Paul wrote more than two letters to the Corinthians, for example. But if they had been preserved better, your religious institution would be calling them Scripture too.

Don't forget to answer my other question here.

What books do you think did not make "the cut?"

 

[redleghunter]

The subject being the Gospel not the scriptures.

Actually Irenaeus used several of Paul's epistles and 1st Peter and 1st John throughout Against Heresies. Not to mention Revelation. When he refers to their writings he duly refers to their apostolic authority.

 

[redleghunter]

Don't forget the "Shepherd of Hermas".

Not everything that was true was chosen to be in the canon. Only the things that were going to be used in services. That was the purpose for gathering these special ones.

Forgive me...

That the NT books were of apostolic origin was truly the dividing line. Many of the NT apocryphal works had dubious claims with none originating in the 1st century AD.

I think by the turn of the 3rd Century most bishops viewed anything "new " coming from Alexandria with suspicion. At times Alexandria was a hot bed of heresy.

 

[redleghunter]

How do you find him? Too abrasive? His personal rhetorical style I mean.

Oh wait, I'm thinking about "adversus judaeos", have you read any of that?

Forgive me...

I did not find the homilies abrasive.

"Adversus Judaoes?" Never read them. Like many in the Church history, there were those with a blind spot reference the Jewish and Israel. That is why replacement theology is error.

 

[Apex]

What books do you think did not make "the cut?"

That is the wrong question to ask. Since many of the Apostles' letters were not as well preserved as the ones we have in our possession, they no longer were in public circulation when the cut was made.

 

[redleghunter]

From ChristianityToday:
"He was later given the caption of "Doctor of the Church" because of the value of his writings (600 sermons and 200 letters survive). Along with Basil the Great, Gregory of Nazianzus, and Athanasius, he is considered one of the greatest of the early Eastern church fathers."

Forgive me...

I'm also enjoy the personal conversion testimony of Basil of Caesarea.

"I had wasted much time on follies and spent nearly all of my youth in vain labors, and devotion to the teachings of a wisdom that God had made foolish. Suddenly, I awoke as out of a deep sleep. I beheld the wonderful light of the Gospel truth, and I recognized the nothingness of the wisdom of the princes of this world."

 

[redleghunter]

That is the wrong question to ask. Since many of the Apostles' letters were not as well preserved as the ones we have in our possession, they no longer were in public circulation when the cut was made.

Well we don't have any manuscript evidence for the ones you speak of. People usually copy letters which apply to future generations.

 

[redleghunter]

Hi, I don't think we've met.

Let me ask you. Does the bride of Christ have the authority to make changes in her own house?

Economia?

And if that is true, are all these different Churches and individual ideas the bride?

Forgive me...

To be fair, even the Eastern Church endured some doctrinal development not unlike Rome. For example, the "Metropolitans" was a development of church government from the NT model Paul and Peter taught.