Maybe, "three nights and three days" ?

[AFrazier]

We are in agreement that those verses refer to Abib 14, so I don't want them to go away either.


I believe it was the beginning of Abib 14. Why would Yeshua wait until the afternoon of the 14th to tell them to prepare the passover? They should have been in line with thousands of other Jews at the temple with their lambs to be killed. Then they had to cook them for hours before they could eat them. They had no time to go looking for a room at the last minute.


Yes, please provide that info. I have read sources that say the Chagigah could be eaten on the 14th or 15th. If the phrase, "eat the passover" can mean "eat the Chagigah", then why can't "eat the passover" in Mark 14:12 mean, "eat the Chagigah"?

Okay, there is, in fact, a Chagigah on the 14th, that is treated in all respects the same as the passover itself, and there is also the Chagigah of the 15th, required to fulfill the duty of rejoicing.

The Scholars asked: According to the son of Tema, does it [the hagigah] come from the herd or does it not come from the herd; does it come from females or does it not come from females; does it come a two-year old, or does it not come a two-year old? [Do we say,] when the Divine Law compared it to the Passover it was in the matter of eating, but not in respect of all [other] things; or perhaps there is no difference? — Come and hear: The hagigah which comes with the Passover is as the Passover: it comes from the flock, but it does not come from the herd; it comes from the males but it does not come from the females; it comes a year old, but it does not come a two-year old, and it may be eaten only a day and a night, and it may be eaten only roast, and it may be eaten only by those who have registered for it. [Now,] whom do you know to hold this view? The son of Tema. This proves that we require everything. (Pesachim 70a)

The son of Tema said: The hagigah which comes with the Passover is as the Passover, and it may only be eaten a day and a night, whereas the hagigah of the fifteenth is eaten two days and one night; again, the hagigah of the fourteenth, a man discharges therewith [his duty] on account of rejoicing, but he does not discharge therewith [his duty] on account of hagigah. What is the son of Tema’s reason? — As R. Hiyya taught his son, Neither shall the sacrifice of the feast [zebah hag] of the passover be left unto the morning: ‘zebah hag,’ this is the hagigah; ‘the passover’ is what it implies, and the Divine Law saith, ‘it shall not be kept overnight.’ (Talmud, Pesachim 70a)

 

[gadar perets]

Okay, there is, in fact, a Chagigah on the 14th, that is treated in all respects the same as the passover itself, and there is also the Chagigah of the 15th, required to fulfill the duty of rejoicing.

The Scholars asked: According to the son of Tema, does it [the hagigah] come from the herd or does it not come from the herd; does it come from females or does it not come from females; does it come a two-year old, or does it not come a two-year old? [Do we say,] when the Divine Law compared it to the Passover it was in the matter of eating, but not in respect of all [other] things; or perhaps there is no difference? — Come and hear: The hagigah which comes with the Passover is as the Passover: it comes from the flock, but it does not come from the herd; it comes from the males but it does not come from the females; it comes a year old, but it does not come a two-year old, and it may be eaten only a day and a night, and it may be eaten only roast, and it may be eaten only by those who have registered for it. [Now,] whom do you know to hold this view? The son of Tema. This proves that we require everything. (Pesachim 70a)

The son of Tema said: The hagigah which comes with the Passover is as the Passover, and it may only be eaten a day and a night, whereas the hagigah of the fifteenth is eaten two days and one night; again, the hagigah of the fourteenth, a man discharges therewith [his duty] on account of rejoicing, but he does not discharge therewith [his duty] on account of hagigah. What is the son of Tema’s reason? — As R. Hiyya taught his son, Neither shall the sacrifice of the feast [zebah hag] of the passover be left unto the morning: ‘zebah hag,’ this is the hagigah; ‘the passover’ is what it implies, and the Divine Law saith, ‘it shall not be kept overnight.’ (Talmud, Pesachim 70a)

Thanks. So my contention is that the last supper was not a Passover seder, but a pre-passover meal in which the Chagigah could have been the main dish. Don't you find it strange that only the disciples were present at that meal? Passover is a family gathering. Where were their wives and children?

 

[AbbaLove]

They counted inclusively. Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Three days. You can choose to believe differently, but there's no way around the fact that he died on the day of the preparation, and he rose on the first day of the week.

MJs basically agree that the Preparation Day (removal of leaven from homes) should be completed, if possible, by noon on the 14th of Abib/Nisan. It was not forbidden if a Jewish family had started removing leaven before sundown; while it was still the 13th of Abib/Nisan and then did a final sweep on the 14th. You need to remember that there were different sects of Judaism back then (e.g. Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes) just as there are today in Israel. However, either way that in and of itself is no proof that the 14th of Abib/Nisan was on a Friday.

More likely that the Crucifixion was on the 5th Jewish Day of the Week on the 14th of Abib/Nisan. Apparently, you aren't aware that the 14th didn't always fall on a friday as the RCC has perpetuated throughout much of Christendom leading up to what they refer to as "Easter".

You are greatly mistaken if you believe in a 6th Jewish Day (friday) Crucifixion. Your major downfall of your "Good Friday" scenario is that you are at a loss to account for "three nights" when only two nights have elapsed including friday night and saturday night. The only way to account for three nights is that the first night was thursday night NOT friday night. Your timeline blunder is dismissing/ignoring Matthew 12:40.

Also the only way the Emmaus road "three days have passed" from the 14th to the 17th (1st Jewish Day of the Week) is with the Crucifixion occurring on the 5th Jewish Day of the Week. The 6th Jewish Day (Unleavened Bread High Sabbath) could be considered the first day after the Crucifixion, and the 7th Jewish Day could be considered the second day since the Crucifixion and the 1st Day could be considered the third day since Yeshua's Crucifixion. Likewise three nights ... the beginning night of the 6th Jewish Day, the second night at the beginning of the 7th Jewish day and the third night at the beginning of the 1st Jewish Day.

Where you seem to be getting confused is your misunderstanding of the 3 elapsed Jewish Days between the Pesach Crucifixion on the afternoon of the 14th of Abib/Nisan and the Resurrection before sunrise on the 17th of Abib/Nisan. Yeshua arose on the 1st Jewish Day (before sunrise) on the same day (1st Day) when Yeshua's two followers were on the road to Emmaus the afternoon of the 1st Jewish Day when Yeshua arose from the tomb.

Your problem is the same as other "Good Friday" advocates in confusing a gregorian friday timeline with a Jewish 5th Day timeline. The truth is that your friday Crucifixon scenario does not satisfy Yeshua HaMashiach's words as recorded in Matthew 12:40 and therefore a Jewish 5th Day Crucifixion satisfies all related scriptures which can't be said for your "Good Friday" 6th Day Crucifixion scenario.

 

[AFrazier]

Monday, Abib 10

Okay, so you don't recognize the passage of seven days from Saturday to Friday inclusive. I'm going to leave out my own words and give you just what the scriptures actually say, with the references. There are seven days.

Day 1: "Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany ..." (John 12:1)

Day 2: "On the next day ... Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon ..." (John 12:12-14) "... many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down branches ... and strawed them in the way. And they that went before ... cried, 'Hosanna'. And Jesus entered ... Jerusalem, and ... the temple: and when he had looked round about ... he went out unto Bethany ..." (Mark 11:8-11)

Day 3: "And on the morrow ... they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple ..." (Mark 11:12-15)

Day 4: "And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. ... And they come again to Jerusalem ... And he began to speak in parables ... And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words. ... Then come unto him the Sadducees ... And one of the scribes came ... (his many challenges from the religious sects take place here; this section in Mark parallels the woes)." (Mark 11:20-12:44) This is followed by the Olivet discourse. (Mark 13:1-37)

Day 5: "After two days was the passover ... And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper ... there came a woman having an alabaster box ..." (Mark 14:1) *** Note here that with Day 1 being "six days before the passover," Day five is necessarily "two days before the passover," which is consistent with "after two days was the passover," given the synonymy of the statements, "third day," "after three days," and "in three days." The parallels are therefore confirmed to this point.

Day 6: "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said ..., 'where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?' And he sendeth forth two of his disciples ... and his disciples went forth ... and they made ready the passover. And in the evening he cometh with the twelve." (Mark 14:12-17) He is arrested and tried that night. (14:43-65)

Day 7: "And straightway in the morning the chief priests ... delivered him to Pilate." Jesus is then crucified and dies (Mark 15:24-37). *** Note here that Day 7 "was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath." (Mark 15:42)

When you go through the timeline the scriptures provide, please note three things. (1) We can confirm the weekdays by the information of Day 7 (Mark 15:42). It was the preparation, meaning it was Friday, which allows us to count backwards and establish that Day 1 was a Saturday. (2) We can confirm the dates by the information of Day 6 (Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7). It was the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, meaning that Day 6 was the 14th of Nisan. (3) We can confirm the number of days and the passage of them by the parallel between John's "six days before the passover," and Matthew and Mark's "after two days was the passover."

This information, by the scripture, demonstrates a Friday, Nisan 15th crucifixion.

But in either case, there are seven discernible days.

 

[AFrazier]

Thanks. So my contention is that the last supper was not a Passover seder, but a pre-passover meal in which the Chagigah could have been the main dish. Don't you find it strange that only the disciples were present at that meal? Passover is a family gathering. Where were their wives and children?

Well first, women weren't allowed to eat with the men at the passover. They had to eat separately. So if this was the passover meal, then there wouldn't have been any women or children present with Jesus and the others. It's one of the prime examples that this was the passover itself.

Second, a passover party was only allowed to be approximately twelve or thirteen people (although there is some discrepancy in that via Josephus, who claims upwards of twenty in a party. I'm still looking into those specifics). But this also is a prime example of the passover rituals being observed.

Third, remember that the chagigah of the 14th was treated in every respect as the passover itself. It wasn't valid on the 13th. And if it wasn't killed as a qualifying chagigah of the 14th, then it wouldn't carry the paska nomenclature.

Fourth, and most important ... the scriptures state in black and white that this was the passover. Barring the argument of a passover chagigah of the 14th, which wouldn't be valid on the 13th, there are simply no other arguments to the contrary. It says what it says. Three separate gospels say, "... and they made ready the passover."

 

[AbbaLove]

Your problem is the same as other "Good Friday" advocates in confusing a gregorian friday timeline with a Jewish 5th Day timeline. The truth is that your friday Crucifixon scenario does not satisfy Yeshua HaMashiach's words as recorded in Matthew 12:40 ... "three days and three nights" whereas a Jewish 5th Day Crucifixion satisfies all related scriptures which can't be said for your "Good Friday" RCC Crucifixion scenario.

Guess that is why you don't post with a "Messianic" faith icon. FYI Messianic Judaism by and large doesn't believe in your "Good Friday" scenario. Instead they can support Abib/Nisan 14 as occurring on either the 4th Jewish Day (e.g. Visionary) or a 5th Jewish Day (e.g. Alex Tennet) instead of the RCC/EOC friday scenario that they've perpetuated throughout much of Christendom.

So far you've failed being that you're still at a loss to come up with a satisfactory explanation for "three nights" and "after three days" (Matthew 12:40 and Mark 9:31). Instead of our friday scenario getting a pass it gets a failing grade.

 

[AFrazier]

​

MJs basically agree that the Preparation Day (removal of leaven from homes) should be completed, if possible, by noon on the 14th of Abib/Nisan. It was not forbidden if a Jewish family had started removing leaven before sundown; while it was still the 13th of Abib/Nisan and then did a final sweep on the 14th. You need to remember that there were different sects of Judaism back then (e.g. Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes) just as there are today in Israel. However, either way that in and of itself is no proof that the 14th of Abib/Nisan was on a Friday.

More likely that the Crucifixion was on the 5th Jewish Day of the Week on the 14th of Abib/Nisan. Apparently, you aren't aware that the 14th didn't always fall on a friday as the RCC has perpetuated throughout much of Christendom leading up to what they refer to as "Easter".

You are greatly mistaken if you believe in a 6th Jewish Day (friday) Crucifixion. Your major downfall of your "Good Friday" scenario is that you are at a loss to account for "three nights" when only two nights have elapsed including friday night and saturday night. The only way to account for three nights is that the first night was thursday night NOT friday night. Your timeline blunder is dismissing/ignoring Matthew 12:40.

Also the only way the Emmaus road "three days have passed" from the 14th to the 17th (1st Jewish Day of the Week) is with the Crucifixion occurring on the 5th Jewish Day of the Week. The 6th Jewish Day (Unleavened Bread High Sabbath) could be considered the first day after the Crucifixion, and the 7th Jewish Day could be considered the second day since the Crucifixion and the 1st Day could be considered the third day since Yeshua's Crucifixion. Likewise three nights ... the beginning night of the 6th Jewish Day, the second night at the beginning of the 7th Jewish day and the third night at the beginning of the 1st Jewish Day.

Where you seem to be getting confused is your misunderstanding of the 3 elapsed Jewish Days between the Pesach Crucifixion on the afternoon of the 14th of Abib/Nisan and the Resurrection before sunrise on the 17th of Abib/Nisan. Yeshua arose on the 1st Jewish Day (before sunrise) on the same day (1st Day) when Yeshua's two followers were on the road to Emmaus the afternoon of the 1st Jewish Day when Yeshua arose from the tomb.

Your problem is the same as other "Good Friday" advocates in confusing a gregorian friday timeline with a Jewish 5th Day timeline. The truth is that your friday Crucifixon scenario does not satisfy Yeshua's HaMashiach words as recorded in Matthew 12:40 and therefore a Jewish 5th Day Crucifixion satisfies all related scriptures which can't be said for your "Good Friday" 6th Day Crucifixion scenario.

I'm not confused about anything. I know that the month starts with the sighting of the molad. I know that the Beth Din would determine the truth of the sighting in the mouth of two witnesses, who couldn't include women. When they formally consecrated the month, a system of bonfire signals would be lit to inform distant regions, such as the Galilee, that the month had started.
A Jewish calendar date runs from sunset to sunset. The evening of a day begins just after noon, as the sun commences to move towards the western horizon.
Lambs (or goats) would be selected on the 10th day of the month.
On the 13th day of the month, at twilight, would be the first search for leaven. It had to be done by the light of a lamp. It couldn't be searched for in the light of the sun, and wasn't supposed to be searched for at night.
Once the sun set completely, the 13th became the 14th.
In the morning, just before dawn on the 14th (also considered a form of twilight), the second search for leaven was made, and in the same fashion, by the light of a lamp.
At the sixth hour of the day, all leaven was burned. It was permitted to eat leavened bread until the fifth hour.
At the ninth hour of the day until the eleventh hour of the day, the passover lambs were sacrificed. The lambs were roasted, and then eaten into the night as the 14th became the 15th. No part of the lamb or goat was to remain until the morning. By rabbinical law, midnight was the cut-off.
On the 15th was a holy convocation. It was determined, at least in that time period, that it was a sabbath. The paska of the 15th, the chagigah, was offered as a festive offering.
On the 16th, a portion of the firstfruits were brought. They were put in a sheaf and waved before the altar. This day marked the beginning of the counting of the omer, which would lead to Pentecost, variously, on the 5th, 6th, or 7th of Sivan, depending upon the lengths of the two intervening months. Two full months of thirty days would put it on the 7th. Two months of twenty-nine days would put it on the 5th. One month of each would put it on the 6th.

So do me a favor and stop presuming to tell me what I understand and what I don't, what I know and what I don't. I'm not a novice at this subject. And you aren't really interested in learning anything.

Furthermore, I am neither RCC or EOC. I have absolutely no denominational affiliation. And I might also add that I once, for a brief time, embraced the possibility of a Wednesday crucifixion. For a while I also embraced the possibility of a Thursday crucifixion. But in the end, objective consideration ruled out both. The facts, for those who choose to acknowledge them, disallow any day but Friday. I don't believe in a Friday crucifixion because of any doctrine or bias. It is a conclusion I have arrived at through dedicated study and objective consideration.

The reason I consider three days and three night synecdoche is that the scriptures are plain that he died on the day of preparation, which is Friday, and they are plain that he rose on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. Because we know that it was Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, I have no problem taking Jesus' figure of speech with a grain of salt. It was three inclusive days.

 

[AFrazier]

Your problem is the same as other "Good Friday" advocates in confusing a gregorian friday timeline with a Jewish 5th Day timeline. The truth is that your friday Crucifixon scenario does not satisfy Yeshua HaMashiach's words as recorded in Matthew 12:40 ... "three days and three nights" whereas a Jewish 5th Day Crucifixion satisfies all related scriptures which can't be said for your "Good Friday" RCC Crucifixion scenario.

Guess that is why you don't post with a "Messianic" faith icon. FYI Messianic Judaism by and large doesn't believe in your "Good Friday" scenario. Instead they can support Abib/Nisan 14 as occurring on either the 4th Jewish Day (e.g. Visionary) or a 5th Jewish Day (e.g. Alex Tennet) instead of the RCC/EOC friday scenario that they've perpetuated throughout much of Christendom.

So far you've failed being that you're still at a loss to come up with a satisfactory explanation for "three nights" and "after three days" (Matthew 12:40 and Mark 9:31). Instead of our friday scenario getting a pass it gets a failing grade.

Forgot to speak to that ... I know that the 14th can, and does, fall on other days of the week. It's all relative to the sighting of the new moon.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Thanks. So my contention is that the last supper was not a Passover seder, but a pre-passover meal in which the Chagigah could have been the main dish. Don't you find it strange that only the disciples were present at that meal? Passover is a family gathering. Where were their wives and children?

It was a Pesakh Seudah Hamefsekhet. Literally the "last supper" before the fast of the firstborn. The fast began at sunrise and ended at sunset on the 14th.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I'm not confused about anything. I know that the month starts with the sighting of the molad. I know that the Beth Din would determine the truth of the sighting in the mouth of two witnesses, who couldn't include women. When they formally consecrated the month, a system of bonfire signals would be lit to inform distant regions, such as the Galilee, that the month had started.
A Jewish calendar date runs from sunset to sunset. The evening of a day begins just after noon, as the sun commences to move towards the western horizon.
Lambs (or goats) would be selected on the 10th day of the month.
On the 13th day of the month, at twilight, would be the first search for leaven. It had to be done by the light of a lamp. It couldn't be searched for in the light of the sun, and wasn't supposed to be searched for at night.
Once the sun set completely, the 13th became the 14th.
In the morning, just before dawn on the 14th (also considered a form of twilight), the second search for leaven was made, and in the same fashion, by the light of a lamp.
At the sixth hour of the day, all leaven was burned. It was permitted to eat leavened bread until the fifth hour.
At the ninth hour of the day until the eleventh hour of the day, the passover lambs were sacrificed. The lambs were roasted, and then eaten into the night as the 14th became the 15th. No part of the lamb or goat was to remain until the morning. By rabbinical law, midnight was the cut-off.
On the 15th was a holy convocation. It was determined, at least in that time period, that it was a sabbath. The paska of the 15th, the chagigah, was offered as a festive offering.
On the 16th, a portion of the firstfruits were brought. They were put in a sheaf and waved before the altar. This day marked the beginning of the counting of the omer, which would lead to Pentecost, variously, on the 5th, 6th, or 7th of Sivan, depending upon the lengths of the two intervening months. Two full months of thirty days would put it on the 7th. Two months of twenty-nine days would put it on the 5th. One month of each would put it on the 6th.

So do me a favor and stop presuming to tell me what I understand and what I don't, what I know and what I don't. I'm not a novice at this subject. And you aren't really interested in learning anything.

Furthermore, I am neither RCC or EOC. I have absolutely no denominational affiliation. And I might also add that I once, for a brief time, embraced the possibility of a Wednesday crucifixion. For a while I also embraced the possibility of a Thursday crucifixion. But in the end, objective consideration ruled out both. The facts, for those who choose to acknowledge them, disallow any day but Friday. I don't believe in a Friday crucifixion because of any doctrine or bias. It is a conclusion I have arrived at through dedicated study and objective consideration.

The reason I consider three days and three night synecdoche is that the scriptures are plain that he died on the day of preparation, which is Friday, and they are plain that he rose on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. Because we know that it was Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, I have no problem taking Jesus' figure of speech with a grain of salt. It was three inclusive days.

I would say we agree on most points other than the dating (my timeline is 14th -16th while yours is 15th-17th), when and what the last supper actually was (mine is the Pesakh Seudah HaMefsekhet of the 14th while yours is the Pesakh meal of the 15th) and the actual sacrifice (mine is the actual Pesakh lamb of the 14th while yours is the Chagigah of the 15th). My problem with the Chagigah was, among other things, that it could be cut up and bones broken which IMO would discount it as actually fulfilling prophecy. I understand you believe that since Yeshua's bones were not broken, having nothing to do with the Pesakh lamb, but still fulfills that prophecy in His death on the 15th in your timeline. We also both agree regarding synecdoche and inclusive count of the time period.

 

[gadar perets]

Okay, so you don't recognize the passage of seven days from Saturday to Friday inclusive. I'm going to leave out my own words and give you just what the scriptures actually say, with the references. There are seven days.

Day 1: "Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany ..." (John 12:1)

Day 2: "On the next day ... Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon ..." (John 12:12-14) "... many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down branches ... and strawed them in the way. And they that went before ... cried, 'Hosanna'. And Jesus entered ... Jerusalem, and ... the temple: and when he had looked round about ... he went out unto Bethany ..." (Mark 11:8-11)

Day 3: "And on the morrow ... they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple ..." (Mark 11:12-15)

Day 4: "And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. ... And they come again to Jerusalem ... And he began to speak in parables ... And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words. ... Then come unto him the Sadducees ... And one of the scribes came ... (his many challenges from the religious sects take place here; this section in Mark parallels the woes)." (Mark 11:20-12:44) This is followed by the Olivet discourse. (Mark 13:1-37)

Day 5: "After two days was the passover ... And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper ... there came a woman having an alabaster box ..." (Mark 14:1) *** Note here that with Day 1 being "six days before the passover," Day five is necessarily "two days before the passover," which is consistent with "after two days was the passover," given the synonymy of the statements, "third day," "after three days," and "in three days." The parallels are therefore confirmed to this point.

Day 6: "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said ..., 'where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?' And he sendeth forth two of his disciples ... and his disciples went forth ... and they made ready the passover. And in the evening he cometh with the twelve." (Mark 14:12-17) He is arrested and tried that night. (14:43-65)

Day 7: "And straightway in the morning the chief priests ... delivered him to Pilate." Jesus is then crucified and dies (Mark 15:24-37). *** Note here that Day 7 "was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath." (Mark 15:42)

When you go through the timeline the scriptures provide, please note three things. (1) We can confirm the weekdays by the information of Day 7 (Mark 15:42). It was the preparation, meaning it was Friday, which allows us to count backwards and establish that Day 1 was a Saturday. (2) We can confirm the dates by the information of Day 6 (Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7). It was the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, meaning that Day 6 was the 14th of Nisan. (3) We can confirm the number of days and the passage of them by the parallel between John's "six days before the passover," and Matthew and Mark's "after two days was the passover."

This information, by the scripture, demonstrates a Friday, Nisan 15th crucifixion.

But in either case, there are seven discernible days.

Please add the day if the week to each if your points. It is hard to follow as is.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Now to answer this properly ...

1) I don't care what Messianic Judaism by and large believes. 2) I have no idea what a "Messianic" faith icon is. Nor do I care. 3) I don't, and never have, referred to the day of the crucifixion as "Good Friday." 4) If you weren't so ignorant of actual history, you would be aware that the early Jewish church held to a Friday crucifixion. It didn't start with the Roman Catholic Church, or the Eastern Orthodox. 5) I'm still not impressed with Tennent's inadequate research. 6) I haven't failed to come up with any answers. As they say, you can lead a horse to water ... Just because you won't listen to reason, that doesn't mean reason hasn't been offered. 7) Your posts, always, without fail, drip with nasty sarcasm, condescension, and a sickening air of pretension. It's hard to take you seriously. Between your typographical antics, your ugly comments, your bigotry, and everything else, it is simply not desirable to talk to you.

Abbalove has need to discount everything in favor of only the 3 night and 3 day scenario, falsely needing it to the hour. Yet we see in Luke, it is never even mentioned:

As the crowds increased, Jesus said, “This is a wicked generation. It asks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation. The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the people of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom; and now something greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and now something greater than Jonah is here.

WHAT WAS the sign? Was it that a man died or that a man got swallowed by a fish? No. There would have never been any preaching or anything. But what WAS the sign. The Ninevites believed because Jonah SURVIVED! Yeshua RESURRECTED!

 

[gadar perets]

Well first, women weren't allowed to eat with the men at the passover. They had to eat separately. So if this was the passover meal, then there wouldn't have been any women or children present with Jesus and the others. It's one of the prime examples that this was the passover itself.

Reference please.

Second, a passover party was only allowed to be approximately twelve or thirteen people (although there is some discrepancy in that via Josephus, who claims upwards of twenty in a party. I'm still looking into those specifics). But this also is a prime example of the passover rituals being observed.

Reference please.

 

[Dkh587]

The bottom line is, the Messiah said he would be in the grave for 3 days & 3 nights just as Noah was in the belly of the fish for 3 days & 3 nights

Friday afternoon to Sunday morning does NOT meet the criteria of what the Messiah himself said. Period

 

[Dkh587]

Abbalove has need to discount everything in favor of only the 3 night and 3 day scenario, falsely needing it to the hour. Yet we see in Luke, it is never even mentioned:

As the crowds increased, Jesus said, “This is a wicked generation. It asks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation. The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the people of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom; and now something greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and now something greater than Jonah is here.

WHAT WAS the sign? Was it that a man died or that a man got swallowed by a fish? No. There would have never been any preaching or anything. But what WAS the sign. The Ninevites believed because Jonah SURVIVED! Yeshua RESURRECTED!

The sign of Jonah was Jonah being in the belly of the fish for 3 days & 3 nights.

Your argument falls flat because the Messiah referenced the number of days and nights and said that was how long he would be in the grave - Matthew 12:40

Friday afternoon to Sunday morning isn’t long enough.

at least AbbaLove is trying to reconcile a proper timeline according to what the Messiah said. Can’t say the same for you and others.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The sign of Jonah was Jonah being in the belly of the fish for 3 days & 3 nights.

Your argument falls flat because the Messiah referenced the number of days and nights and said that was how long he would be in the grave - Matthew 12:40

Friday afternoon to Sunday morning isn’t long enough.

at least AbbaLove is trying to reconcile a proper timeline according to what the Messiah said. Can’t say the same for you and others.

You are as wrong as Abbalove. You take one verse out of context and base everything on it! The verse in Luke does not even mention it! The sign was not a dead man in a grave. If you think that then you are no different than the evil and adulterous generation Yeshua was speaking to! just as they did not understand neither do you.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The bottom line is, the Messiah said he would be in the grave for 3 days & 3 nights just as Noah was in the belly of the fish for 3 days & 3 nights

Friday afternoon to Sunday morning does NOT meet the criteria of what the Messiah himself said. Period

Actually it does!

 

[AFrazier]

The bottom line is, the Messiah said he would be in the grave for 3 days & 3 nights just as Noah was in the belly of the fish for 3 days & 3 nights

Friday afternoon to Sunday morning does NOT meet the criteria of what the Messiah himself said. Period

And yet ... he was still in the grave Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. So I guess you're going to have to find a way to reconcile the reality of the chronology with your interpretation, because he didn't die on Wednesday or Thursday.

 

[AFrazier]

Reference please.


Reference please.

I'll get you the references when I get home from work. But just to ask ... are you doubting me after all these posts and all the substantiation I've already given? Do you believe I'm making it up? Or are you just trying to learn and expand your own knowledge base?

 

[AFrazier]

Please add the day if the week to each if your points. It is hard to follow as is.

The point was to establish through direct scripture the total number of days that transpired. But Day 7 is a Friday.

Day 1 [Saturday : Six days before the passover : After six days is the passover]: "Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany ..." (John 12:1)

Day 2 [Sunday : Five days before the passover : After five days is the passover]: "On the next day ... Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon ..." (John 12:12-14) "... many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down branches ... and strawed them in the way. And they that went before ... cried, 'Hosanna'. And Jesus entered ... Jerusalem, and ... the temple: and when he had looked round about ... he went out unto Bethany ..." (Mark 11:8-11)

Day 3 [Monday : Four days before the passover : After four days is the passover]: "And on the morrow ... they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple ..." (Mark 11:12-15)

Day 4 [Tuesday : Three days before the passover : After three days is the passover]: "And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. ... And they come again to Jerusalem ... And he began to speak in parables ... And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words. ... Then come unto him the Sadducees ... And one of the scribes came ... (his many challenges from the religious sects take place here; this section in Mark parallels the woes)." (Mark 11:20-12:44) This is followed by the Olivet discourse. (Mark 13:1-37)

Day 5 [Wednesday : Two days before the passover : After two days is the passover]: "After two days was the passover ... And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper ... there came a woman having an alabaster box ..." (Mark 14:1) *** Note here that with Day 1 being "six days before the passover," Day five is necessarily "two days before the passover," which is consistent with "after two days was the passover," given the synonymy of the statements, "third day," "after three days," and "in three days." The parallels are therefore confirmed to this point.

Day 6 [Thursday : One day before the passover : After one day is the passover : It is the Eve of the Passover (formal title of the 14th day) : See note below on this]: "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said ..., 'where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?' And he sendeth forth two of his disciples ... and his disciples went forth ... and they made ready the passover. And in the evening he cometh with the twelve." (Mark 14:12-17) He is arrested and tried that night. (14:43-65)

Day 7 [Friday : The Passover Festival Begins]: "And straightway in the morning the chief priests ... delivered him to Pilate." Jesus is then crucified and dies (Mark 15:24-37). *** Note here that Day 7 "was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath." (Mark 15:42)

On the sixth day, it can be considered in one of two ways. It can either be considered from the perspective that the 14th is officially the "Eve of the Passover," and the passover proper is what was meant. Else, it can be understood from an inclusive point of view. On the Roman calendar, for example, December 30th is "three days before the kalends of January," or iii k. ian, whereas the 30th is, by our counting, two days before the kalends. If you count it forward, Dec. 30th is three days before the kalends, Dec. 31st is two days before the kalends (also called pridie, or "the day before"), and Jan. 1st, following the pattern, is one day before the kalends, even though it is the kalends itself.

The second option is the more likely due to the "in three days," "after three days," and "on the third day" statements, which are all synonymous, showing that inclusive counting is undeniably correct. Although it sounds weird, "one day before the passover" is the day of the passover itself, just as the actual day of the kalends is technically "one day before the kalends."

The counting methods were not exclusive to any group, country, or culture. In fact, much of it was intermixed as a Hellenistic culture. Greek philosophy, mathematics, etc., held sway throughout the Mediterranean. If you are well read in your Greek philosophy, you can even see that Paul makes some veiled references to Plato's Republic in a few instances. Josephus, too, quotes and cites dozens of secular Greek and Roman historians. The Jewish people were well educated in Hellenistic culture, and had adopted many aspects of it.

BUT, the first option exists as a viable option for those who simply can't accept that historical reality. It could simply be that John, Matthew, and Mark all meant to refer to the first day of the festival itself, with the 14th considered the "eve," as it is referred to numerous times throughout the Talmud.