Maybe, "three nights and three days" ?

[AFrazier]

I agree that Yeshua died on a Friday, but I do not understand your timeline. Your "eighth" day would be Abib 14 for that is the day the Passover lambs were killed, with Yeshua's death fulfilling that timing exactly to the day and hour. That would make your "seventh" day Abib 13, but you say the Passover lamb was slain that day. Do you not believe Yeshua was slain at the exact same time the Passover lambs were normally slain?

If you would, would you please give me a condensed version of the timeline as you see it, including the dates and weekdays you associate with each day? I just want to understand your point of view so we aren't discussing this at cross purposes.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Bottom line , Jesus Christ rose from the grave according to the Holy Scriptures.
Death had no sting , and the grave no victory.
Dates and times are not that relevant concerning the above.

 

[AFrazier]

Bottom line , Jesus Christ rose from the grave according to the Holy Scriptures.
Death had no sting , and the grave no victory.
Dates and times are not that relevant concerning the above.

They are when the thread itself is about those things. That is the actual point of the discussion. Additionally, atheists have had a field day picking apart our faith over alleged contradictions, inconsistencies, and supposed incompatibility with historical facts. In the interest of being prepared in season and out to defend our faith, we need to be able to defend against such things.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

They are when the thread itself is about those things. That is the actual point of the discussion. Additionally, atheists have had a field day picking apart our faith over alleged contradictions, inconsistencies, and supposed incompatibility with historical facts. In the interest of being prepared in season and out to defend our faith, we need to be able to defend against such things.

You make a very good point and I agree .
We should always be prepared to give a answer to and for our faith.
Just sometimes when the verses of The Word of God get broken down to the nitty gritty , we can tend to lose focus and the essence of what is being said.
I definitely understand what you are conveying and agree.

 

[gadar perets]

@AFrazier, You have an extra day stuck in YOUR timeline. My comments in red.

• On the seventh definable day, it was the first day of unleavened bread, when the Passover lamb had to be slain (Abib 14). Jesus sent two disciples to prepare the Passover. He was arrested that night. (Matt. 26:17; Mark 14:12; Luke 22:7) ("That night" was Abib 14). The chronology of the previous days is confirmed here in the fact that Jesus arrived in Bethany six days before the passover, and this day is the sixth of six days, consistent with the inclusive counting method of the first century. It is in perfect harmony with the "after two days is the passover" statement in Matthew and Mark. Six days before the passover, the passover would have been after six days.
• On the eighth definable day, the morning following his arrest, Jesus was crucified.(That morning and the afternoon he died was still Abib 14).
• On the ninth definable day, it was the sabbath. The women rested. The priests conspired to guard the tomb. (Abib 15)
• On the tenth definable day, it was the first day of the week. Jesus rose from the grave. (Abib 16. His resurrection on this day fulfilled the wave sheaf offering)

The "Last Supper", the trial, the crucifixion, and Yeshua's death all took place on Abib 14.

 

[AFrazier]

@AFrazier, You have an extra day stuck in YOUR timeline. My comments in red.



The "Last Supper", the trial, the crucifixion, and Yeshua's death all took place on Abib 14.

The disciples came to Jesus on the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was killed, and asked where he wanted them to prepare so he could eat the passover. He gave them instructions, which they followed. And later that evening, when the hour came, he arrived with the others and the last supper commenced.

I sincerely appreciate your desire to cram everything into a perfect Nisan 14th box, but it just doesn't match the scripture. Do you understand that? According to blatant and conspicuous scripture, the last supper took place on the evening of the 14th, going into the night of the 15th at sunset. He was crucified the next day on the morning of the 15th.

This is not my opinion, timeline, interpretation, or similar. This is the plain statement of scripture.

By what you're saying in red, I can only assume you mean to suggest that the last supper took place at the beginning of the 14th, when it became the 14th at sunset on the 13th, and he was then arrested on the night of the 14th, tried, condemned the next morning on the day of the 14th, and then later crucified when the passover lambs were slain.

But the scriptures say that preparation for the last supper began "on the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover ..." Three gospels give us this same information. You yourself have already confirmed that this day, as described by the gospels, is 14 Abib / Nisan.

Please consider what I've said before you respond. You're not the first or only person I've had to argue with on this point. It's getting really old and tired having to constantly repeat myself on such a simple point. Three passages say virtually the same thing.

Mark 14:12, 17-18 — And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? [...] And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.

Luke 22:7-8, 14-16 — Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. [...] And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: for I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

Matthew 26:17, 20-21 — Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? [...] Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

I'll say again that I appreciate the theology you're trying to apply here, but the scriptures say what they say. And no matter how many times, or in how many different ways you try to argue around them, they will keep coming back up. They are plain and unambiguous. The last supper, according to the scriptures, was the passover. It was on the evening of the day of the 14th as it became the 15th at sunset. He was crucified the next day, which was the day of the 15th.

 

[gadar perets]

The disciples came to Jesus on the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was killed, and asked where he wanted them to prepare so he could eat the passover. He gave them instructions, which they followed. And later that evening, when the hour came, he arrived with the others and the last supper commenced.

I sincerely appreciate your desire to cram everything into a perfect Nisan 14th box, but it just doesn't match the scripture. Do you understand that? According to blatant and conspicuous scripture, the last supper took place on the evening of the 14th, going into the night of the 15th at sunset. He was crucified the next day on the morning of the 15th.

The "evening of the 14th" begins at sunset when the 13th ends. The 15th was the official start of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The Jews did not want his body to remain on the tree on the high day (John 19:31). The day after Yeshua died was a high day because two holy days fell on the same day. Abib 15 was an annual Sabbath that fell on the weekly Sabbath that year. Therefore, Yeshua died on the day BEFORE the high day of Abib 15. He died on the 14th.

By what you're saying in red, I can only assume you mean to suggest that the last supper took place at the beginning of the 14th, when it became the 14th at sunset on the 13th, and he was then arrested on the night of the 14th, tried, condemned the next morning on the day of the 14th, and then later crucified when the passover lambs were slain.

That is the correct timeline.

But the scriptures say that preparation for the last supper began "on the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover ..." Three gospels give us this same information. You yourself have already confirmed that this day, as described by the gospels, is 14 Abib / Nisan.

Correct, but it refers to the beginning of that day after the sun set ending the 13th.

 

[RDKirk]

They are when the thread itself is about those things. That is the actual point of the discussion.

There are lots of Internet discussions over inconsequential issues.

Additionally, atheists have had a field day picking apart our faith over alleged contradictions, inconsistencies, and supposed incompatibility with historical facts.

Only because in quite recent years certain groups of Christians have claimed very word of scripture is absolutely literal as well as being the sole foundation of faith.

In the interest of being prepared in season and out to defend our faith, we need to be able to defend against such things.

Well, no we don't.

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. -- 1 Peter 3.

That is a call for personal witness: Telling people what Jesus has done for you.

Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. -- 1 Timothy 4

That is from the letter to Timothy, who was--specifically--an evangelist. Not everyone is an evangelist, and the calling of the evangelist is to tell people what Jesus has done for them.

The important thing about that in both cases is to give either your witness or the gospel (if you are actually an evangelist), and don't be distracted:

But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. -- 2 Timothy 2

Of course the enemy is going to distract you from giving your personal witness or preaching the actual gospel: Christ and Him crucified.

And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. -- 1 Corinthians 2

The enemy's goal is to distract you. The enemy's goal is to tie you up in debate to keep you from ever giving them your witness or the gospel, because those are what will bring someone else observing the discussion to Christ.

 

[AFrazier]

Correct, but it refers to the beginning of that day after the sun set ending the 13th.

1) They came to him on the first day, not the first night, unless you're going to change up your methodology and insist on ignoring semantics where you previously endorsed it.

2) They came to him on the first day prior to the evening, because Mark says, "And in the evening he cometh with the twelve," and Matthew says, "Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve," showing very plainly that they went to make ready the meal prior to the evening, since it wasn't until evening came that Jesus arrived with the disciples to eat.

3) They were specifically instructed to make ready the passover, and they did as instructed and made ready the passover. This is, again, scripture, not opinion. Such statements of scriptural fact are favorites for people to ignore. The disciples couldn't have done as they were instructed, or as we are informed that they did, on the 13th, and it couldn't be done on the 14th at night.

Your other two points, which are based on your timeline and are therefore derivative, I don't intend to address.

 

[AFrazier]

There are lots of Internet discussions over inconsequential issues.



Only because in quite recent years certain groups of Christians have claimed very word of scripture is absolutely literal as well as being the sole foundation of faith.



Well, no we don't.

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. -- 1 Peter 3.

That is a call for personal witness: Telling people what Jesus has done for you.

Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. -- 1 Timothy 4

That is from the letter to Timothy, who was--specifically--an evangelist. Not everyone is an evangelist, and the calling of the evangelist is to tell people what Jesus has done for them.

The important thing about that in both cases is to give either your witness or the gospel (if you are actually an evangelist), and don't be distracted:

But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. -- 2 Timothy 2

Of course the enemy is going to distract you from giving your personal witness or preaching the actual gospel: Christ and Him crucified.

And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. -- 1 Corinthians 2

The enemy's goal is to distract you. The enemy's goal is to tie you up in debate to keep you from ever giving them your witness or the gospel, because those are what will bring someone else observing the discussion to Christ.

Tell me ... what gives you the authority to determine what topics are foolish? I say that it is not the topic of this thread that generates strife, but pride. The answers are there in black and white for anyone to see.

I've given my personal testimony to plenty of people. And I can tell you from firsthand experience that a thorough knowledge of correct history is sometimes vital in overcoming someone who has been poisoned by The History Channel and similar. It is, therefore, in my opinion, a subject that we should be well prepared to answer, because how else can you give an answer for your hope when someone tells you your faith is a fabrication, based on a book that has been proven false?

I appreciate what you're saying, and I'm going to choose to believe that you meant it in a good spirit. But be aware that your post came across as smug and condescending. I've been in the word for thirty years. I don't need someone to instruct me on what conversations are appropriate, profitable, foolish, etc.

But believing you meant well and not ill, thanks for your input. I agree with your underlying principle, but I disagree with your assessment of the value of the conversation on this thread.

 

[gadar perets]

1) They came to him on the first day, not the first night, unless you're going to change up your methodology and insist on ignoring semantics where you previously endorsed it.

2) They came to him on the first day prior to the evening, because Mark says, "And in the evening he cometh with the twelve," and Matthew says, "Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve," showing very plainly that they went to make ready the meal prior to the evening, since it wasn't until evening came that Jesus arrived with the disciples to eat.

3) They were specifically instructed to make ready the passover, and they did as instructed and made ready the passover. This is, again, scripture, not opinion. Such statements of scriptural fact are favorites for people to ignore. The disciples couldn't have done as they were instructed, or as we are informed that they did, on the 13th, and it couldn't be done on the 14th at night.

Your other two points, which are based on your timeline and are therefore derivative, I don't intend to address.

How do you explain John 19:31?

 

[RDKirk]

Tell me ... what gives you the authority to determine what topics are foolish? I say that it is not the topic of this thread that generates strife, but pride. The answers are there in black and white for anyone to see.

I've given my personal testimony to plenty of people. And I can tell you from firsthand experience that a thorough knowledge of correct history is sometimes vital in overcoming someone who has been poisoned by The History Channel and similar. It is, therefore, in my opinion, a subject that we should be well prepared to answer, because how else can you give an answer for your hope when someone tells you your faith is a fabrication, based on a book that has been proven false?

I appreciate what you're saying, and I'm going to choose to believe that you meant it in a good spirit. But be aware that your post came across as smug and condescending. I've been in the word for thirty years. I don't need someone to instruct me on what conversations are appropriate, profitable, foolish, etc.

But believing you meant well and not ill, thanks for your input. I agree with your underlying principle, but I disagree with your assessment of the value of the conversation on this thread.

I don't intend to be condescending, but I've been participating in online Christian discussions for over 30 years (which is only half as long as I've been a Christian), seeing the same issues month after month, year after year--coming to the same non-conclusions and getting the participants nowhere. In two months, the same issue all over again even on the same forum.

I look at the pages of topics on this particular forum (which I've been participating in for maybe seven years now), and I'm saddened and exasperated by what I see. I'd never advise this place for a new Christian--this is not an enlightening place, it's a place where faith is more often hammered than sharpened.

And being at the age where Ecclesiastes makes such clear sense, I see these debates and realize that they don't really mean much.

The gospel is what saves, and the gospel is actually very slim.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[visionary]

The disciples came to Jesus on the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was killed, and asked where he wanted them to prepare so he could eat the passover. He gave them instructions, which they followed. And later that evening, when the hour came, he arrived with the others and the last supper commenced.

I sincerely appreciate your desire to cram everything into a perfect Nisan 14th box, but it just doesn't match the scripture. Do you understand that? According to blatant and conspicuous scripture, the last supper took place on the evening of the 14th, going into the night of the 15th at sunset. He was crucified the next day on the morning of the 15th.

This is not my opinion, timeline, interpretation, or similar. This is the plain statement of scripture.

By what you're saying in red, I can only assume you mean to suggest that the last supper took place at the beginning of the 14th, when it became the 14th at sunset on the 13th, and he was then arrested on the night of the 14th, tried, condemned the next morning on the day of the 14th, and then later crucified when the passover lambs were slain.

But the scriptures say that preparation for the last supper began "on the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover ..." Three gospels give us this same information. You yourself have already confirmed that this day, as described by the gospels, is 14 Abib / Nisan.

Please consider what I've said before you respond. You're not the first or only person I've had to argue with on this point. It's getting really old and tired having to constantly repeat myself on such a simple point. Three passages say virtually the same thing.

Mark 14:12, 17-18 — And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? [...] And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.

Luke 22:7-8, 14-16 — Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. [...] And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: for I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

Matthew 26:17, 20-21 — Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? [...] Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

I'll say again that I appreciate the theology you're trying to apply here, but the scriptures say what they say. And no matter how many times, or in how many different ways you try to argue around them, they will keep coming back up. They are plain and unambiguous. The last supper, according to the scriptures, was the passover. It was on the evening of the day of the 14th as it became the 15th at sunset. He was crucified the next day, which was the day of the 15th.

It is not unusual for Passover day itself to be called part of the feast of Unleavened Bread.

 

[AFrazier]

How do you explain John 19:31?

Well, it was Friday, because it was the preparation, and the sabbath was about to start. Although, I'm assuming you are referring to the infamous "high sabbath" that wasn't a high sabbath, but a high day on the sabbath? — "for that sabbath day was an high day," not, "for that sabbath day was an high sabbath."

Since you obviously missed the explanation to your question that I gave in post #260, here was my answer (if you just read the bolded parts, the statement is more concise):

"Furthermore, with first fruits, the waving of the sheaf, and the counting of the omer beginning on the 16th at that point in history (citations previously given, but can be given again if needed), it made the sabbath the next day, following the day of the crucifixion, a high day. Thus, great was the day of that sabbath."

 

[visionary]

Well, it was Friday, because it was the preparation, and the sabbath was about to start. Although, I'm assuming you are referring to the infamous "high sabbath" that wasn't a high sabbath, but a high day on the sabbath? — "for that sabbath day was an high day," not, "for that sabbath day was an high sabbath."

Since you obviously missed the explanation to your question that I gave in post #260, here was my answer (if you just read the bolded parts, the statement is more concise):

"Furthermore, with first fruits, the waving of the sheaf, and the counting of the omer beginning on the 16th at that point in history (citations previously given, but can be given again if needed), it made the sabbath the next day, following the day of the crucifixion, a high day. Thus, great was the day of that sabbath."

No evidence

 

[AFrazier]

I don't intend to be condescending, but I've been participating in online Christian discussions for over 30 years (which is only half as long as I've been a Christian), seeing the same issues month after month, year after year--coming to the same non-conclusions and getting the participants nowhere. In two months, the same issue all over again even on the same forum.

I look at the pages of topics on this particular forum (which I've been participating in for maybe seven years now), and I'm saddened and exasperated by what I see. I'd never advise this place for a new Christian--this is not an enlightening place, it's a place where faith is more often hammered than sharpened.

And being at the age where Ecclesiastes makes such clear sense, I see these debates and realize that they don't really mean much.

The gospel is what saves, and the gospel is actually very slim.

Sorry for the rant.

I'll tell you truly that I'm in the boat with you. I've been coming into these sorts of forums since the late nineties. And no matter the topic, everyone always knows everything about everything. Everyone is an expert. Everyone is a Bible scholar. No one yields to scripture. Ever. No minds are ever changed, at least not publicly. Not one ounce of humility is ever shown. Even when it seems to have been shown, it's often feigned.

Once, and only once, have I ever gotten a nod of acknowledgement from someone who, after thirty or forty pages of a thread, finally and graciously admitted that although he still chose to disagree with me, there was more to my "school of thought" than he had realized or imagined, and that he had a new-found respect for the position. It wasn't as shaky and worthless as he had thought. But that's it. Just that once. Never again before or after.

And so I participate in the threads where I have earned the right through study and research to be an authoritative voice on the subject. I stay away from certain topics, because I don't know them thoroughly enough to be a competent teacher of others. I try to avoid advice threads, except in relationship stuff, because of my experience.

I also participate for those new Christians who do come on these forums looking for answers. While I'm aware up front that they are going to get a thousand answers from every incompetent know-it-all on the planet, if they see my answers, they might get what they were looking for (I don't give an answer unless I know what I'm talking about).

I was once blessed to have that happen, to have a young lady tell me that she had that moment of epiphany, where it suddenly clicked into place for her because of what I said and how I said it.

As it concerns the topic of this thread, I can tell you that I've had the same discussion with dozens of people over the course of a hundred or more thread pages on more than half a dozen different threads. It's always the same. I quote the scripture. They ignore it. They're like a bunch of Sadducees. They think if they can argue around the scripture, their point is somehow valid. But the scripture is what it is.

So I understand if you think these debates are pointless. But for me, it's a matter of principle.

 

[AFrazier]

It is not unusual for Passover day itself to be called part of the feast of Unleavened Bread.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. That's what I've been saying. The afternoon preceding the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was killed; the 14th of Nisan.

 

[AFrazier]

No evidence

Here we go again. Should I even bother typing this, since you clearly don't read my posts?

"for that sabbath day was an high day" is how the passage reads. It is proof of itself that it was not a high sabbath, but a high day. That's what it actually says.

And first fruits, the waving of the sheaf, and counting the omer began on the 16th in the first century (Lev. 23:15-16; Deut. 16:9-15; Tal. Rosh Hash. 6b; Joseph AJ 3.252; Philo Spec. 2.162, 2.176).

Feel free to look up the resource material for yourself.

 

[RDKirk]

.

So I understand if you think these debates are pointless. But for me, it's a matter of principle.

Certain debates are pointless.

Within Christianity, there are "indisputable matters." There can be no dispute within the Body of Christ about certain things, such as Christ's death and resurrection or our own future resurrection into eternal life. There are such beliefs without which one is not a Christian. Those indisputable things will have multiple explicit scriptural references leaving no honorable doubt.

When those are honestly questioned by new Christians, they deserve answers. In my mind, the real value of apologetics is not for debating unbelievers but for providing answers to believers with honest questions, particularly about the "indisputable matters."

On the other hand, there are also many "disputable matters."

Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. -- Romans 14

Some people will have questions over things that are disputable matters--often assertions two or three degrees of speculation from a single witness. As one pastor has said, "They find a button and weave an entire vest behind it." In some cases, such assertions are old enough to be firmly held traditions, as weak as their foundations might actually be.

Such things are never issues of salvation, even if their proponents strenuously argue as though they are. Some things are disputable matters, and that's okay. They aren't hills on which any Christians should die upon.

 

[gadar perets]

Well, it was Friday, because it was the preparation, and the sabbath was about to start. Although, I'm assuming you are referring to the infamous "high sabbath" that wasn't a high sabbath, but a high day on the sabbath? — "for that sabbath day was an high day," not, "for that sabbath day was an high sabbath."

Since you obviously missed the explanation to your question that I gave in post #260, here was my answer (if you just read the bolded parts, the statement is more concise):

"Furthermore, with first fruits, the waving of the sheaf, and the counting of the omer beginning on the 16th at that point in history (citations previously given, but can be given again if needed), it made the sabbath the next day, following the day of the crucifixion, a high day. Thus, great was the day of that sabbath."

Since you believe he died on Friday, Abib 15, please explain the following passage;

Mar 14:1 Now the Passover and Unleavened Bread were two days away; and the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to seize Him by stealth and kill Him;
Mar 14:2 for they were saying, "Not during the festival, otherwise there might be a riot of the people."
​

You have him being killed on the very first day of the festival which was an annual Sabbath.

Also, please explain John 18:28;

Then they led Yeshua from Caiaphas into the Praetorium, and it was early; and they themselves did not enter into the Praetorium so that they would not be defiled, but might eat the Passover. ​

If this took place on the morning of Abib 15 according to your timeline, then the Jews would have already eaten the Passover the prior evening when Abib 15 first began. At that time in history, the Jews certainly did not eat the Passover on the night of Abib 16.