• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Maybe Revelation doesn't belong in canonized Scripture?

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by usexpat97, Feb 26, 2019.

  1. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

    This theory probably won't last very long, but I'd like to see it survive a serious challenge:

    At the Council of Nicea, I understand there was much debate as to whether to include Revelation in the canon. Well...maybe it shouldn't have been. Very simple reason: because John wasn't talking to us. He was talking to the persecuted church in the Roman Empire. So he wrote in cryptic text so as not to be read by the wrong audience and misconstrued as a movement to overthrow the emperor. Now today, as a result, we have all kinds of theories about Milleniums, grasshoppers, horns, and helicopters that were never intended--because we, too, are the wrong audience. We do have a modern underground church, but they still wouldn't understand John's allegorical message because it was not directed at them. It's like your secret message you can communicate with your wife in large social gatherings. Only she would get it. So if you are not her, don't even try.

    Granted, Paul wasn't talking to us, either, to the Galatians, Ephesians, and Corinthians. But the difference is, he doesn't mind an unintended audience reading his letters. So he spoke openly. John did not speak openly.

    Finally, if you remove Revelation from the canon, that in no way impacts whether John's letter is the inerrant word of God. We just don't KNOW it is anymore, because we believe that is the Bible, and Revelation would no longer be part of the Bible. Revelation could still be from God and inerrant--just not God's inerrant word TO US.

    I submit this for peer review. :)
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Lost4words

    Lost4words Like a puppy, i need guidance. Supporter

    United Kingdom
    I like it. Well said.
  3. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    I absolutely agree that there's a lot of confusion due to the cryptic writing style - and the misunderstanding as to context and audience - but that also happens with most of the Gospel writings as well.

    Instead of eliminating Revelation from the recognized canonized books - I think it's more helpful to just keep it in context (because there's a lot of hope that can come from seeing prophetic writing being fulfilled).
  4. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    There is plenty in Revelation which can help us to love the way God wants. So, this is to us.

    Yes, Jesus did have a way of communicating with His disciples so only certain ones would understand > like how He dipped the sop so Peter and John could know Judas was the one who would betray Jesus.

    My opinion is that John had no reason to worry about what people would think. He was talking about times yet to come, while also dealing with churches of that time. But prophesy has more than once . . . I understand . . . had reference to current time plus later times. So, things he wrote could have been for that present time, but also for us. There is plenty in the church messages which we all need to feed on.

    And the overall meaning of Revelation is applicable to us, no matter which times certain prophecies are talking about. Every bit of scripture can be somehow used to help us know how to love.
  5. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    United States
    My humble opinion is that "new babes" that have just come to Christ should read thru the NT a number of times first, then start on the OT, and after that, then start studying on Revelation and perhaps learning the Greek.

    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    I find this person's view concerning the "allusions" found in the book of Revelation that are found in the Old Testament rather fascinating.
    Would anyone like to put down verses from Revelation and the verses from the OT that are "alluded" to? I think that would be enjoyable and edifying. Thanks


    One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source!
    That's IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

    95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation.
    That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!
    Kingdom Bible Studies Table of Contents

    Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series Part 1

    The mark of the beast. Armageddon. The Four Horsemen. The false prophet. Babylon the great. Falling stars, stinging locusts, and giant hailstones. The seven last plagues. The bottomless pit. The lake of fire. These images of terror and catastrophe from the book of Revelation have greatly influenced the thinking of millions of Christians through the ages.
    Even the secular press uses images such as "Armageddon" and "four horsemen of the Apocalypse" to describe calamities in our world. Despite 1900 years of fascination with the book of Revelation, John’s letter to the seven Churches of Asia continues to be misunderstood. And badly misinterpreted!

    One misconception shared by some is that the Revelation has nothing of importance to say to us. It’s considered to be merely a bizarre piece of first-century writing with no relevance for today.
    Another wrong idea is that the Revelation is a code book describing a specific outline of history written in advance. Countless interpreters have tried to "decode" the book from a historical perspective to find all the major world events of the past 1900 years.
    Others interpret it more literally as a handbook for predicting the cataclysmic events that will bring the final wrath of God and the end of the world.
    The claims of Christian groups from the early church to the present — that the Revelation pinpoints the events, personalities, and time periods of "the end" — have all failed. This should be a caution to believers for using the book of Revelation as a predictive handbook.
    Other people’s interpretation of the book of Revelation is based on the "Pan Theory" — it’s all going to pan out in the end! Beloved brethren, the fact is, it’s not panning out the way the end-time prognosticators are projecting!

    Through the years I have ministered the Word in Bible studies, seminars, and church services of various types.
    When there has been a question and answer session, or when opportunity was granted for people to request teaching along a particular line, the most often requested subject has been — THE BOOK OF REVELATION!

    I have met people who were babes in Christ, carnal Christians whose lives were a mess, they had incredible problems and needs, including deliverance, and instead of prayer or counsel or messages that would help them overcome and grow up in Christ, they wanted me to teach them the book of Revelation! "Yeah, brother, that’s for me, lay it on me, I want the book of Revelation!

    The book of Revelation is THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST. Revelation is a book that teaches who and what Jesus Christ is. It reveals Him in all of His glory, unveils Him in all of His fullness. You will find Jesus the Christ in every chapter of the book, for it is the revelation of Himself.
    When we read the message of the Revelation with a heart that seeks after Christ, we see in every page His face and hear from every line His voice. If we do not see Christ in the pages of the Revelation, then all we see is vanity....................

    The book of Revelation is the Sixth Gospel of Jesus Christ. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote what they saw of Jesus Christ on the earth in the days of His flesh. Luke, in the book of Acts, wrote of the revelation of Jesus that came by the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost and throughout the in-part realm of the earnest of the Spirit during the church age.


    ................................. REVELATION meme.jpg
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
  6. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

    United States
    How do you know this difference between Paul and John, that Paul accounted for an unintended audience and John didn't? Can you offer more than conjecture about this?

    Who knows how many correspondences circulated between and among churches in the first century. Thousands, no doubt, Paul's being among them. All addressed to specific audiences.

    I would hazard that we misunderstand Paul's intentions as much as we misunderstand John's. But like any of Paul's letters, Revelation is somewhat decipherable when read in context. It tells us what the Church is. It describes the end of Christ's journey between the veils. It parallels the First Jewish War - the 3½-year exile of the Church from Jerusalem, the 5-month siege on the temple, the descending of the Church onto the earth again in unencumbered splendor.

    Whatever the verbiage - however creatively penned - it illustrates essentially the same thing that Paul's letters do: the transition from old to new.

    The New Testament is about the new creation - or the kingdom - that Christ delivered. The Gospels and the epistles relate that narrative, including Revelation.
  7. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

    United States
    Four big problems:
    1. The assumes a preterist interpretation of Revelation. It's very possible that this interpretation is wrong.

    2. This would suggest we should also throw out all other apocalyptic literature in the Bible like Daniel, much of the minor prophets, and Ezekiel because they also use symbolic and cryptic language.

    3. This assumes that because the language is symbolic, impressionistic, and cryptic that it cannot be understood.

    4. This forgets that there are two authors of Revelation. John and the Holy Spirit. Even if John did not have us in mind when he wrote the book, the Holy Spirit certainly did. Every word of the Holy Spirit remains useful for the church and the church needs to hear it and apply it.
    I agree that Revelation is a difficult book to interpret and apply. But I also believe, after teaching on this book for several months, that it is very understandable and applicable to Christians today and we need to hear its message.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  8. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

    United States
    Revelation 1

    1This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw.

    This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    and I believe it

    Revelation 22

    18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

    and I believe it

    God Bless.
  9. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    United States
    Hello ToL.
    What is your and others view of the book of Enoch?

    Mountains were giants (cool pics!)
    Hello. I read thru it just once back in about 2006 and was interested in this 10 week prophecy.
    Here is a discussion thread on it for those interested.

    The 10 weeks of Enoch, inspired or not?

    Enoch. The prophecy of the 10 weeks
    The Messianic Way Blog | The Messianic Way

    Although the book of Enoch falls outside the current canon of scripture, it is an important book that tells us a lot about the important beliefs of the early church and the Jews of that time. It has been included in the canon at times in the past and was clearly a very important book to the early Messianic believers and was usually found bound together with the Gospels and Epistles of the Early church. Many copies were found at Qumran.

    The authorship of the book is contested because its style changes several times through its text which would indicate more that one writer. This may be in part due to the fact that many of the early works of Judaism were preserved through an oral tradition and later put into written form. I am not a biblical scholar and have no basis to prove this, so it is then my opinion that this is the case.
    But the fact remains that it is without a doubt a pre- Christian writing by as much as a 200 years and was accepted by the early church as a work handed down from Enoch. The accuracy of the prophetic writings in it speak for themselves. Many copies of Enoch was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls which date to at least 160 BCE.

    Jesus himself makes reference to its teachings and uses some of the same expressions which makes you believe that He was very familiar with the book. Jude also quotes from the book as does John in the revelation....................

    3. And Enoch began to recount from the books and said;
    I was born the seventh in the first week,
    While judgement and righteousness still endured.
    4. And after me there shall arise in the second week great wickedness,
    And deceit shall have sprung up;
    And in it there shall be the first end. And in it a man shall be saved;
    And after it is ended unrighteousness shall grow up;
    And a law shall be made for the sinners.
    5. And after that in the third week at it’s close
    A man shall be elected as the plant of righteous Judgement.
    And his posterity shall become the plant of righteousness for evermore.
    6. And after that in the fourth week, at it’s close,
    Visions of the holy and righteous shall be seen.
    And a law for all generations and an enclosure shall be made for them.
    7. And after that in the fifth week, at it’s close,
    The house of glory and dominion shall be built for ever.
    8. And after that in the sixth week all who live in it shall be blinded,
    And the hearts of all of them shall godlessly forsake wisdom.
    And in it a man shall ascend; and at it’s close the house of dominion shall be burnt with fire,
    And the race of the chosen root shall be dispersed.
    9. And after that in the seventh week shall an apostate generation arise,
    and many shall be it’s deeds, And all it’s deed shall be apostate.
    10. And at it’s close shall be elected The elect righteous of the eternal plant of righteousness,
    To receive sevenfold instruction concerning all His creation.

    12. And after that there shall be another, the eighth week, that of righteousness,
    And a sword shall be given to it that a righteous Judgement may be executed on the oppressors,
    And the sinners shall be delivered into the hands of the righteous.
    13. And at it’s close they shall acquire houses through their righteousness,
    And a house shall be built for the Great King in glory for evermore,
    And all mankind shall look to the path of uprightness.
    14. And after that in the ninth week, the righteous judgment
    shall be revealed to the whole world,
    And all the works of the godless shall vanish from all the earth.
    And the world shall be written down for destruction.
    15. And after this, in the tenth week in the seventh part,
    There shall be the great eternal judgement, in which
    He will execute vengeance amongst the angels.
    16. And the first heaven shall depart and pass away,
    and a new heaven shall appear, and all the powers of the heavens shall give sevenfold light.
    17. And after that there will be many weeks without number forever.


    Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

    The Book of Enoch (also 1 Enoch;[1] Ge'ez: መጽሐፈ ሄኖክ mets’iḥāfe hēnoki)
    is an ancient Jewish religious work, ascribed by tradition to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah.

    Enoch warrants special attention for the unique material it holds, such as the origins of supernatural demons and giants, why some angels fell from heaven, details explaining why the Great Flood was morally necessary, and prophetic exposition of the thousand-year reign of the Messiah.

    The older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) of the text are estimated to date from about 300 BCE, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably to the 1st century BCE.[2]

    It is not part of the biblical canon as used by Jews, apart from Beta Israel.
    Most Christian denominations and traditions may accept the Books of Enoch as having some historical or theological interest, but they generally regard the Books of Enoch as noncanonical or noninspired.
    It is regarded as canonical by the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church, but not by any other Christian groups.[citation needed]............................

    Some of the authors of the New Testament were familiar with some of the content of the story.[4] A short section of 1 Enoch (1:9) is cited in the New Testament, Epistle of Jude, Jude 1:14–15, and is attributed there to "Enoch the Seventh from Adam" (1 En 60:8), although this section of 1 Enoch is a midrash on Deuteronomy 33:2. Several copies of the earlier sections of 1 Enoch were preserved among the Dead Sea Scrolls.[citation needed]

    This Ethiopic version of the Book of Enoch is deemed by scholars to be older by several centuries than the Slavonic one, and portions of that older version are in turn known to have been based on Keepers of the Secrets 129 even older manuscripts, such as a lost Book of Noah. Fragments of the Enoch books were discovered among the Dead Sea scrolls. The astronomical-calendrical tale of Enoch thus goes back into great antiquity - perhaps, as the Bible asserts, to pre-Diluvial times. ~ Z.S.

    Some comments from the site:

    Ronald Cossin 1 month ago (edited)
    The book of Enoch is "Definitely" not for the Babies in spirit … it would only cause confusion and fear in one ... it's a Secret only for they Saints of age in Christ ...

    Wisdom comes with age for it is the Gray heir on your head your Silver Crown of Life on your Head for all to see , HE lives within all ...
    Light and Life are one in the same as is Darkness and Death are the same in Creation there will be more Darkness then they are Light just look up at a night sky ... Lightworker REC at 62 years young on earth , But He was There in the Beginning of Space and in Time for all to partake of ...
    Proverbs 8 is The Christ just talking to You and You only , He Calls Out to you From the Beginning of Time , He is Wisdom people , Amen ... and He's still at He's Work by His Holy Spirit Amen

    Queensandy Akukwe 3 months ago
    I praise God almighty for giving me a second chance to be alive after a stroke last year November which I spend 5months and 3weeks in the hospital I'm still recovering but every day I ask FATHER GOD almighty to forgive me and send his holy spirit to guide me teach me every day .
    The years that I have left on this earth all I want is to make it to heaven and meet my Lord Jesus Christ. Listening to this powerful word ,gives me more hope and lift up my spirit Thank you Jesus Christ Amen

    Des *
    5 months ago
    Im listening to Enoch for the first time in my life and I Cry as I wait in traffic( truly a blessing in disguise) of how we've been robbed from this truth.
    I'm a sinner in capital letters and hope God will have mercy on my soul as I awaken to this false reality that we've been subject to from day 1! Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me. I sinner!

    Liverpaul 99
    5 months ago
    Jesus Christ / Yeshua spoke about Enoch as it was biblical in those days. But the False Idol Worshipping Catholic Church decided to leave it out of the Bible. Why? They would rather commit Pagan Sun Worship. Or Pray and Praise Mary rather than the Trinity God Our Father, Yeshua His Son and The Holly Spirit
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
  10. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Melkite Catholic
    FWIW, the Armenian Church did not accept Revelation until the 1700's.
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • List
  11. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

    Good insight about Enoch. Why is Revelation in and Enoch is out?

    To help offer more than conjecture as to the difference between Revelation and Paul's letters, I offer Jesus' explanation per Matthew 13:

    10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

    11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

    “Though seeing, they do not see;
    though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

    14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

    “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
    you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
    15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
    they hardly hear with their ears,
    and they have closed their eyes.
    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    hear with their ears,
    understand with their hearts
    and turn, and I would heal them.

    16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

    That last part is interesting: prophets and righteous people. Jesus could be referring to false prophets and Pharisees, but He could also be referring to those who truly are right with Him. The disciples got to witness plenty of stuff we never will. But we get to have the New Testament, concordances, online search, Travelocity.com, and they don't.

    Maybe we long to know what's to come in the future--particularly right before Christ's return--but that is not to be. And we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking Revelation is that, when maybe it isn't?
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
  12. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

    New Zealand
    But that is exactly what Revelation does do! It tells the Lord's servants what is to happen in the end times. Rev 1:1

    The problem ls with understanding it and why that is difficult, we are told in Isaiah 29:9-12, Jeremiah 4:22, Isaiah 8:16, Isaiah 42:18-20, Matthew 13:14, Romans 11:8, 1 Corinthians 3:18 and many others that tell us how people will be blinded to the truths because they have chosen to believe false teachings.

    Revelation is the only Book that gives us the correct sequence of the end times events. It fits with all the other Bible prophesies which are 'a little here, a little there', but can be sorted out into a coherent picture with the help of Revelation.

    Revelation also give us the incredible story of the Great White Throne Judgement, alluded to by Daniel 7:9-10
    Surely that is enough for people to do their best to have their names Written into the Book of Life!
  13. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

    Okay, Revelation does explicitly say it talks about events yet to come. A preterist can still say it happened not long after its writing.

    I never thought the events of Revelation to be in sequence. Particularly the war in Heaven, angels falling, all that. That seems historicist.
  14. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

    New Zealand
    Labelling theories like 'historicist', is fraught with anomalies.

    Myself, I read the Prophetic Word and using the hindsight of the passing of nearly 2000 years since Jesus came, plus modern knowledge of the world situation and of natural events; then the Revelation story is plausible and from the point of view of the Creator God, a very probable scenario.
    We can expect dramatic things in our future. God will correct the situation we are in now, He did it before with a flood, this time we are plainly told; it will be by fire. 2 Peter 3:7, Isaiah 24, Malachi 4:1

    We Christians should know all about it, what God has planned, all throughout our Bibles and Revelation caps it all with the final outcome of an Eternity with God for all who prove their worth and have their names Written in the Book of Life.
  15. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

    Nothing in current events can tell us whether there is war in Heaven.

    Revelation 12:1-6 strongly suggests Jesus. Then verse 7 has a war in Heaven, Satan and his angels cast down; sequenced well after Jesus has ascended. Which doesn't add up with the serpent in the Garden of Eden and demons being cast out in the Gospels. Can't have Jesus casting out demons if they remain angels until after he ascends.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  16. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

    Hi all

    At the Council of Nicea, I understand there was much debate as to whether to include Revelation in the canon. Well...maybe it shouldn't have been.
    End Quote

    First of all Books to be cannon were not widely discussed and no cannons regarding this were passed at Nicea. The main discussion was one over Logos IE: whether Jesus was of the same Substance as God. IE whether they were always one. All the books Arius had used to defend the position of his separate substance were banned. Possession of the banned books was a death sentence. Enoch was one of the books that got caught up in this matter. While not actually having anything to do with Logos, it was a book often referenced by Believers in this view of the Godhead. Many Gnostics believed that the Arch Angel Raphael was Jesus. Many Others belied it Was Michael... which is what is believed by the Seventh Day Adventist today. It is important to note this was not Trinity that was being formalized but rather duality, Trinity came later. It should also be noted that while some Christian groups state that there was unanimity in this belief that is not true. 112 Bishops wrote to Constantine after saying that they had felt pressure to sign when the did not agree. Just 20 years later a synod of over 300 Bishops passed a cannon saying that Jesus was not of the same Substance and therefore Subordinate to God.

    This was the main battle of the fourth century and by Battle I mean Battle, not ideological argument. Supporters of the two various views murdered each other in the streets and even in the Churches. Bishops were dragged from their Churches and killed in the streets. Athananias was convicted by over 300 Bishops of murdering Arius by poisoning. A War between two Sons of Constantine was fought over this very ideology, a war in which tens if not hundreds of thousands died. A war which determined which Doctrine came down through the centuries.

    The Books that could be considered cannon was later in the century, formally laid out by Athananias 367, in a letter to the other Bishops.

    Enoch was excluded as it could not be agreed upon. You have to understand this was a fight over creating a Catholic which is Latin for Universal Church. Everything was boiled down to a common belief and if it could not be agreed upon by a majority it was put aside. The Western Bishops which had been the Main Supporters of Same Substance view of Logos did not want Enoch made Cannon as mentioned above. They wanted to wipe out all books that even hinted at something other than their Belief. In 387 AD they burned alive Bishop Priscillian and four priests for refusing to burn Enoch and other books and refusing to say Jesus was of same Substance.

    In my opinion this makes the beginning of the Longest Ideological persecution in the history of Man. From here on in if you didn't believe as the Universal Church did you would be Tortured and branded a heretic by the Church, which more often than not meant you were put to death by the civil authorities. It was never the Church that killed you it was the Church that passed judgement it was the civil authorities that killed you.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • List
  17. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Member

    United States
    The book of Revelation is exactly where God intended it to be.

    In fact, it is the only book of the 66 books that God has said, "Read me, I'm special." Rev. 1:3

    Not only read it, but understand it. It is there for a very important reason.
  18. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

    Excellent post! We should also remember that John of Patmos was an angry bitter man. As Earl Doherty wrote:

  19. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

    I have to go with JustTheFacts' insights. A lot of material to chew on, which impacts not just Revelation but apologetics.
  20. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    United States
    What made them decide to accept it?