May I ask some questions?

[Oblio]

The Orthodox Church evangelized much of the Eastern parts of the world. The Greeks (Ss. Cyril & Methodius) brought Christianity to the Slavic lands, giving them their alphabet (Cyrilic) so that they could share the Gospel. Much of the Russian empire was settled and explored by monastics and countless thousands were converted in their wake. Christianity was brought to the Aleuts and the natives of the Western part of North America by Ss. Herman & Innocent (our patron Saint of our parish) who also created an alphabet and translated the Gospel into it. Western Europe was also evangelized by the Orthodox/Catholics while we were in Communion with the Catholics. Unfortunately, the Russian Church which was missionizing the US was nearly destroyed by communism and her evangelistic efforts in this country ground to a halt. All of the Orthodox were forced to retreat back to their mother churches when that happened. This is the main reason why we have so many 'different' churches here in the US and it hampers evangelistics efforts. That being said, we are starting to grow and to become a presence and continue on the Great Commission here in the US.

So between the Orthodox Church in the East and the Catholic Church in the West we are the two largest Churches in the world and have evangelized the majority of the worlds faithful Christians.

On a smaller scale, you can see what a dozen faithful missionaries are doing in Georgia

 

[Suzannah]

Dear Oblio and other Orthodox friends,
Your post convicted me and made me cry!!!!!

In the late `1950's , I moved to Rumania, then one of the most virulent parts of the "satellite" countries. My mother loved Jesus and was an Evangelical , and very open minded to Catholics and Orthodox. She loved them all, and constantly6 told me that "one day" we would "see each other in God's glory".

On the day we moved into our aparmtement, oen of the the "moving men" who was Rumanian, "found" her Bible. He was very upset and told her so in so many terms, that if this was found, she could be convicted of a crime against "the supreme Soviet". My mother, I weep at the memory, tore the page of her Bible, which showed John 8:32
"...and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." He was ecstatic to recieve a page from the real Bible!!!!

From there, there was no preserving my mother's Bible. She had to ask her own mother to send replacements from time to time, because she was forever sharing pages of her own to our maid, to our chauffeur, to our own "Securitat" Security(the stories about the Securitat and our family are priceless...look for it in my book someday!!!) ....my mother, even though she was a Lutheran, holds a special place in Jesus ' heart...she shared what she had, what she knew, with those who had NOTHING.

 

[Nikolas222]

if you have any more questions about the faith you should go to the orthodox church and ask the priest. Also, everyone is welcome in the church and you will never be left out or shunned because you are not orthodox. rather, its better if you attend a few liturgies. im an alter boy and i have learned that if you read a book that has the liturgy translations, you will better understand the faith.

Hope im any help

 

[Nikolas222]

oops. I didnt get that. I kinda thought that the thread was asking questions.

 

[Philip]

First off, if you can, attend a service or two.You are always welcome in the Church (just dont disrespect).Read a book with the liturgy translated and pay attention to the priest and the alter. This will help you get a better understanding of the faith. If you want to ask more questions, ask at the forum, or even better, ask a priest. He will help you (orthodox or not).

Suzannah has already done this. She is currently trying to parse her experience.

 

[ufonium2]

Suzannah, you may want to get an Orthodox perspective on Martin Luther. I saw him in an entirely new light after talking to an Orthodox priest about him. I'm going to try to summarize what he said, some of the smarter folks on this board please correct me when/if I get anything wrong:

What a lot of Protestants don't stress about Luther is that he loved the RCC and wanted to fix it, not divide it. He believed in the real presence, the Sacraments, and several other things that most PREs would rather he didn't. He spent hours in confession and never felt he could confess enough. Hardly a Southern Baptist mentality. So, he was a lot more orthodox (lower-case o) than most Protestants want to believe. Most of the current PRE doctrine that is counter to Catholic and Orthodox teachings actually stems from Calvinism and its offshoots, or from later followers of Luther. Very little of it can actually be attributed to Luther himself. Don't get me wrong, a couple of his ideas do clash heavily with Orthodox doctrine. He had a major problem with faith vs works, but I think a lot of that stems from what was going on in Catholicism at the time.

So yeah, I would venture to guess that Luther would be OK with prostration. It's actually not very common in my parish (OCA-mainly Russian) but I've seen it done. I guess it varies from place to place.

 

[Philip]

What a lot of Protestants don't stress about Luther is that he loved the RCC and wanted to fix it, not divide it. He believed in the real presence, the Sacraments, and several other things that most PREs would rather he didn't. He spent hours in confession and never felt he could confess enough. Hardly a Southern Baptist mentality. So, he was a lot more orthodox (lower-case o) than most Protestants want to believe. Most of the current PRE doctrine that is counter to Catholic and Orthodox teachings actually stems from Calvinism and its offshoots, or from later followers of Luther.

Not to mention Menno Simons, Zwingli and others.

Very little of it can actually be attributed to Luther himself. Don't get me wrong, a couple of his ideas do clash heavily with Orthodox doctrine. He had a major problem with faith vs works, but I think a lot of that stems from what was going on in Catholicism at the time.

Luther had a distinct difficulty with the Orthodox teaching on justification. He was unable to separate himself from the Western thinking which he perceived to pit faith against works. In the East, where justification is seen in an entirely different light, there is no conflict between faith and works.

What a lot of Protestants don't stress about Luther is that he loved the RCC and wanted to fix it, not divide it.

Luther was very concerned with Apostolic Succession (at least during the beginning of the Reformation). He (maybe it was his disciple Melanchthon, I don't recall) contacted the Patriarch of Constantinople to explore the possibility of the German Church leaving the jurisdiction of Rome and becoming an autocephalous Orthodox Church. Regrettably, Luther was unable to put aside his Western viewpoint.

 

[Oblio]

Regrettably, Luther was unable to put aside his Western viewpoint.

Indeed !
What a different (Western) world this would be if he had.

 

[Photini]

Indeed !
What a different (Western) world this would be if he had.

That's very thought provoking. Maybe he could have been a link to bring the West back into communion with the East. After all, his intention was not division.

 

[Oblio]

It does go to show that it was not just the (perceived) abuses of the Western Church that were responsible for the nearly countless divisions in the West but that Luther rebeled in a way against all of Christianity.

 

[Philip]

That's very thought provoking.

Indeed. This is one of my two favorite speculations in European history.

 

[Photini]

Indeed. This is one of my two favorite speculations in European history.

May I ask what the other one is?

 

[Philip]

What would have happened if Charles Martel had lost the Battle of Poitiers? In all likelyhood, the Muslim Moors would have conquered all of Gaul (France) and who knows what else. No Charlemagne (grandson of Martel)? No Holy Roman Empire? No Crusades?

 

[Orthosdoxa]

Hi Suzannah

As a fairly new convert myself, I am probably not able to offer much help. Frederica Mathewes-Green once said Orthodoxy is like Grandma's attic - there are ALWAYS more treasures to uncover. How true, how true!!!

I have, however, put together a web site with links to articles that I found helpful as I was first starting out. I compiled it primarily to explain to my family what I was doing, but perhaps it might be of some assistance to you, too. http://stienekel.tripod.com/

Glad to have you here.

A lurker,
Katherine

 

[Suzannah]

Thank you so much Katherine! I will check out your website!

I just finished reading "The Orthodox Church" by Timothy Ware. In it, he discusses the deification of humans, that is, the process whereby we become sanctified. Please understand that as a Protestant who was always taught that Satan was cast out of heaven, for wanting to become a God, where this leaves me???? I am really having trouble with it. He explains it, I'm sure quite well. But I don't understand his explanation and it leaves me with a terrifying feeling in the pit of my stomach. Can anyone help with this???
Thank you! God bless you all for your support of me in this journey...it's very frightening for me.
Love to all,
Suzannah

 

[Reader Nilus]

Adam before the fall had perfect communion with God. After the fall, that communion was broken. With Our Lord Jesus the way to communion is now open again. St Peter calls us to become partakers of the Divine Nature, and that is what theois is all about, becoming filled with the Holy Spirit and communing with God as Adam did before the fall. We do not become God, we partake of the Life of the Most Holy Trinity.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Oblio]

Achieving Your Potential in Christ: Theosis (note that there are multiple pages)

in particular

From:

Man does not become a God

Commenting of the meaning of the expression "partakers of divine nature," William Barclay says (II Peter 1:4):

"Sometimes in Greek, when a noun is used without the definite article, it has a kind of adjectival force. To say that man could become 'ho theos' would be to say that man can become identical with God, one and the same as God. But, to say that a man can become 'theos' - using the word without the definite article - is to say that a man can come to have the same kind of life and existence and being as God has, but without becoming identical with God. The conception of deification is that man through Jesus Christ can be lifted out of life of the fallen and corrupt humanity into the very life of God." [7]
Thus, in theosis man does not "possess" God nor does he become God in essence. Rather, participating in that which is given to him, thanking God for His ineffable grace.

Theosis in no way means that human beings "become God" in a pantheistic sense. It means, rather, that believers enter into a personal relationship with God through Baptism and participate fully in God's life through prayer and the sacraments.

 

[Suzannah]

Oblio and Jeff! Thank you so much. I feel much better now. I guess Mr. Ware's explanation is just above my head and I didn't understand properly. Thank you both so much for clarifying this. It really scared me.

I'm not scared anymore and I'm still seeking Him!

Next question:
I can "reach" in my thinking to the veneration of the Saints and to Mary. My question is: how does "prayer" to them, work??? Does everyone in Heaven hear our prayers?
In Protestant teaching, only God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit "hears" our prayers. So even though I have no real problem with the "reverence" or "veneration" part, I'm having difficulty understanding the prayers to the saints. Is there any Biblical reference for this? (Even if there isn't, I'm okay with that. I'm way past Sola Scriptura, I'm just asking.)

 

[Philip]

I can "reach" in my thinking to the veneration of the Saints and to Mary. My question is: how does "prayer" to them, work???

It works through God's grace. We believe that the Saints in heaven are still members of the Church. We are united with them in the Body of Christ. This is the Communion of the Saints. We believe that they care for us just as we care for eachother here on earth. Just as we pray for our brothers here on earth, our brothers in heaven still pray for us.

Does everyone in Heaven hear our prayers?

We believe that by the grace of God they do.

In Protestant teaching, only God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit "hears" our prayers.

I am sure you would agree that if God wants them to hear us, they will hear us. It is at this point that someone usually mentions St Paul's reference to "a cloud of witnesses".

So even though I have no real problem with the "reverence" or "veneration" part, I'm having difficulty understanding the prayers to the saints. Is there any Biblical reference for this?

There are no explicit references like Paul saying "Remember ask Mary to pray to you". However, there are many passages, when read from an Orthodox viewpoint, that illustrate the Communion of Saints.

 

[Suzannah]

It works through God's grace. We believe that the Saints in heaven are still members of the Church. We are united with them in the Body of Christ. This is the Communion of the Saints. We believe that they care for us just as we care for eachother here on earth. Just as we pray for our brothers here on earth, our brothers in heaven still pray for us.



We believe that by the grace of God they do.



I am sure you would agree that if God wants them to hear us, they will hear us. It is at this point that someone usually mentions St Paul's reference to "a cloud of witnesses".



There are no explicit references like Paul saying "Remember ask Mary to pray to you". However, there are many passages, when read from an Orthodox viewpoint, that illustrate the Communion of Saints.

Dear Philip:
Quote: There are no explicit references like Paul saying "Remember ask Mary to pray to you". However, there are many passages, when read from an Orthodox viewpoint, that illustrate the Communion of Saints.

Me: Can you please show me where they are? I don't remember the "cloud of witnesses" verse so I'm a blank page and teachable!

BTW: I found a Serbian Orthodox "mission" tonight quite by accident. They have a bookstore on a street I often pass. The name of it is "Forerunner". I've passed it driving, for years. I thought it was a LDS bookstore because of the name equalling "geneology" or something. Anyway, I was parked near it, and so I was walking by the window and they had a sign that said: "Proclaiming the Truth since 33 AD." I immediately thought [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]!!!! If this wasn't "Providence" at this point in my search, I don't know what is. I went in, and the Priest was not there, but they were very kind and open and they told me that theirs is a "missionary" church, and that visitors are welcome. They showed me the "chapel" in the back and it was BEAUTIFUL! Very intimate, much smaller than the church I went to last Sunday. They told me that most of their congregation are "converts". They tried to make a gift of a book, but I paid for it anyway by just leaving the money on the counter. It's called "God's Revelation to the Human Heart" by Fr. Seraphim Rose. Has anyone here read it? I've not read it yet, but it looks very intriguing. It's small so I will read it tomorrow and post any questions about it.
Thank you all so much for being here! I feel very much like a wanderer in the desert looking for directions!