Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

[parousia70]

Anti-Christ is the only known figure in scripture to carry the title of the abomination of desolation.

Totally false.
I mean.. astronomically so.

I can hardly believe you actually typed that out, read it back, thought to yourself yep that's biblically correct, and then clicked "post".

 

[Contenders Edge]

What Scripture claims it's a figure?

It depends on what you mean by "figure." If a "person" is what is meant by "figure", which "figure" in expressionary fashion most often means as it pertains to people in history or in the future to come, then there are plenty of scripture that describe the abomination of desolation to be a man and if you haven't found any, that is because you haven't been studying the scriptures as regularly as you should be.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Totally false.
I mean.. astronomically so.

I can hardly believe you actually typed that out, read it back, thought to yourself yep that's biblically correct, and then clicked "post".

Because it IS biblically correct. There is nothing else or anyone else to which the abomination of desolation is attached. You have the audacity to declare me wrong in this and yet have not cited anything else to that title is specifically attached.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It depends on what you mean by "figure." If a "person" is what is meant by "figure", which "figure" in expressionary fashion most often means as it pertains to people in history or in the future to come, then there are plenty of scripture that describe the abomination of desolation to be a man and if you haven't found any, that is because you haven't been studying the scriptures as regularly as you should be.

Because it IS biblically correct. There is nothing else or anyone else to which the abomination of desolation is attached. You have the audacity to declare me wrong in this and yet have not cited anything else to that title is specifically attached.

If members want to specifically discuss the AoD, please do it on a separate thread.
Such as this one.............

Where is the abomination of desolation of Daniel, Matt and Mark shown in Revelation

Where in Revelation is shown the AoD mentioned in Daniel, Matthew and Mark?
Any help on this would be appreciated. Thanks

IN Daniel, we have this shown:

Daniel 12:11
And-from-time he-is-taken-away the-continually, and-to-give-of an-abomination, one-desolating, thousand, two hundreds, and ninety days

It is repeated twice in the Olivet Discourse:

Matthew 24:15
Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation, the being declared thru Daniel the prophet, having-stood in a place, holy
(the one-reading let him be minding/understanding)

Mark 13:14
`Whenever yet ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation, the being declared thru Daniel the prophet, having-stood where not it is binding,
(the one-reading let him be minding/understanding),
then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains

However, Luke does not mention it in his Gospel, but he does mention this:

Luke 21:20
Whenever yet ye may perceiving/seeing Jerusalem being encompassed by armies/stratopedwn <4760>,
then be knowing that is nigh/egguV <1451> the desolating of Her...[Revelation 18:19]

John also uses the phrase "....the one reading...." that is used in Matt 24:15 and Mark 13:14:

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading/anaginwskwn <314> (5723) and the ones hearing, the Logos/Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it having been written,
for the season/time/kairoV <2540> is nigh/egguV <1451>.

And this is shown in Luke 21:20, also of the Olivet Discourse:

Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust upon their heads and cried-out, weeping and mourning, saying "Woe! Woe! the great City, wherein all were made rich, that had ships at sea, by reason of her prices.
That to one hour She was desolated/hrhmwqh <2049> (5681) .

 

[Contenders Edge]

Clement did not futurize his comments regarding Matthew 24.

Clement wasn't talking about the 24th chapter of Matthew in its entirety either.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What recognized post-apostolic scholar before 1800 AD disagreed that Luke and Matthew were referring to the same event?

jgr said: ↑
Who associated Matthew 24 or Luke 21 with a future antichrist?

Clement of Alexandria (150-215 AD) (On Matthew 24:3,34) “But our Master did not prophesy after this fashion;

I like Clement........
Clement of Alexandria

Excerpts from Homilies | Excerpts from Stromata | Fragments of Clemens Alexandrinus

"Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal...This work is variously called grace, and illumination, and perfection, and washing: washing, by which we cleanse away our sins; grace, by which that holy light of salvation is beheld, that is, by which we see God clearly."

Clement of Alexandria
TITUS FLAVIUS CLEMENS
(c.150- 220)

Founder of the allegorical school of Biblical Interpretation | Teacher of Origen

"Shepherd of Tender Youth" - A.D.200 Earliest Known Hymn with Author

On Matthew 24:15, The Abomination of Desolation)
"We have still to add to our chronology the following, -- I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian. For the two years are added to the seventeen months and eighteen days of Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius; and the result is three years and six months, which is "the half of the week," as Daniel the prophet said. For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction. For thus the declaration, which is subjoined, shows: "How long shall be the vision, the sacrifice taken away, the abomination of desolation, which is given, and the power and the holy place shall be trodden under foot? And he said to him, Till the evening and morning, two thousand three hundred days, and the holy place shall be taken away."

"These two thousand three hundred days, then, make six years four months, during the half of which Nero held sway, and it was half a week; and for a half, Vespasian with Otho, Galba, and Vitellius reigned. And on this account Daniel says, "Blessed is he that cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days." For up to these days was war, and after them it ceased. And this number is demonstrated from a subsequent chapter, which is as follows: "And from the time of the change of continuation, and of the giving of the abomination of desolation, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety
======================
(On the Significance of the A.D.70)
"Whence also Peter, in his Preaching, speaking of the apostles, says: ‘But we, unrolling the books of the prophets which we possess, who name Jesus Christ, partly in parables, partly in enigmas, partly expressly and in so many words, find His coming and death, and cross, and all the rest of the tortures which the Jews inflicted on Him, and His resurrection and assumption to heaven previous to the capture of Jerusalem. As it is written, These things are all that He behooves to suffer, and what should be after Him. Recognizing them, therefore, we have believed in God in consequence of what is written respecting Him.’ " (Miscellanies 4:15)

Clement wasn't talking about the 24th chapter of Matthew in its entirety either.

Then direct us to an early post apostolic church father/scholar that did............

 

[Contenders Edge]

If members want to specifically discuss the AoD, please do it on a separate thread.
Such as this one.............

Where is the abomination of desolation of Daniel, Matt and Mark shown in Revelation

You did make this thread out to be about the three accounts of the Olivet discourse which involves everything the accounts mention including the A.O.D and so participants view this thread in terms of generality. In the future, if there specific topics that you want the discussion to be focused, you may wish to take care that such is reflected in your thread labels,

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You did make this thread out to be about the three accounts of the Olivet discourse which involves everything the accounts mention including the A.O.D and so participants view this thread in terms of generality. In the future, if there specific topics that you want the discussion to be focused, you may wish to take care that such is reflected in your thread labels,

Here are the verses again.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
Matt 24:15 Abomination desolation....desolating of Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:15
Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination<946> of the desolation/ἐρημώσεως<2050>.......

Mark 13:14
Whenever yet ye may be seeing see the abomination<946> of the desolation/ἐρημώσεως<2050>

Luke 21:20
Whenever yet ye may be seeing the Jerusalem surrounded by war-troops,
then be knowing that come nigh desolating/ἐρήμωσις<2050> of Her

 

[Contenders Edge]

I like Clement........

Clement of Alexandria

Excerpts from Homilies | Excerpts from Stromata | Fragments of Clemens Alexandrinus

"Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal...This work is variously called grace, and illumination, and perfection, and washing: washing, by which we cleanse away our sins; grace, by which that holy light of salvation is beheld, that is, by which we see God clearly."

Clement of Alexandria
TITUS FLAVIUS CLEMENS
(c.150- 220)

Founder of the allegorical school of Biblical Interpretation | Teacher of Origen

"Shepherd of Tender Youth" - A.D.200 Earliest Known Hymn with Author

On Matthew 24:15, The Abomination of Desolation)
"We have still to add to our chronology the following, -- I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian. For the two years are added to the seventeen months and eighteen days of Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius; and the result is three years and six months, which is "the half of the week," as Daniel the prophet said. For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction. For thus the declaration, which is subjoined, shows: "How long shall be the vision, the sacrifice taken away, the abomination of desolation, which is given, and the power and the holy place shall be trodden under foot? And he said to him, Till the evening and morning, two thousand three hundred days, and the holy place shall be taken away."

"These two thousand three hundred days, then, make six years four months, during the half of which Nero held sway, and it was half a week; and for a half, Vespasian with Otho, Galba, and Vitellius reigned. And on this account Daniel says, "Blessed is he that cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days." For up to these days was war, and after them it ceased. And this number is demonstrated from a subsequent chapter, which is as follows: "And from the time of the change of continuation, and of the giving of the abomination of desolation, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety
======================
(On the Significance of the A.D.70)
"Whence also Peter, in his Preaching, speaking of the apostles, says: ‘But we, unrolling the books of the prophets which we possess, who name Jesus Christ, partly in parables, partly in enigmas, partly expressly and in so many words, find His coming and death, and cross, and all the rest of the tortures which the Jews inflicted on Him, and His resurrection and assumption to heaven previous to the capture of Jerusalem. As it is written, These things are all that He behooves to suffer, and what should be after Him. Recognizing them, therefore, we have believed in God in consequence of what is written respecting Him.’ " (Miscellanies 4:15)

While your sources are informative, Clements eschatological views did not necessarily reflect those of his day and did not become mainstream until a few centuries later.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Then direct us to an early post apostolic church father/scholar that did............

So even the fact that the early church believed that the Anti-Christ was yet to come is not enough.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

While your sources are informative, Clements eschatological views did not necessarily reflect those of his day and did not become mainstream until a few centuries later.

Then give another source................

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So even the fact that the early church believed that the Anti-Christ was yet to come is not enough.

The word anti-christ isn't mentioned in the Olivet Discourse......start a thread on that.......

 

[Contenders Edge]

Scripture?

You mean you haven't come across this passage? (2 Thessalonians chapter 2) You really do need to do some more reading.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Then give another source................

So even the fact that the early church believed that the Anti-Christ was yet to come is not enough.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Here are the verses again.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
Matt 24:15 Abomination desolation....desolating of Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:15
Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination<946> of the desolation/ἐρημώσεως<2050>.......

Mark 13:14
Whenever yet ye may be seeing see the abomination<946> of the desolation/ἐρημώσεως<2050>

Luke 21:20
Whenever yet ye may be seeing the Jerusalem surrounded by war-troops,
then be knowing that come nigh desolating/ἐρήμωσις<2050> of Her

And the abomination of desolation is mentioned in two of those accounts which is why it is being discussed. Anything else in those accounts could just as easily been debated on this thread.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And the abomination of desolation is mentioned in two of those accounts which is why it is being discussed. Anything else in those accounts could just as easily been debated on this thread.

Then I suppose I will just have to continue posting these 3 parallel verses......

Matthew 24:15
Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination<946> of the desolation/ἐρημώσεως<2050>.......

Mark 13:14
Whenever yet ye may be seeing see the abomination<946> of the desolation/ἐρημώσεως<2050>

Luke 21:20
Whenever yet ye may be seeing Jerusalem surrounded by war-troops,
then be knowing that come nigh the desolating/ἐρήμωσις<2050> of Her

 

[Contenders Edge]

Then I suppose I will just have to continue posting these 3 parallel verses......

Matthew 24:15
Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination<946> of the desolation/ἐρημώσεως<2050>.......

Mark 13:14
Whenever yet ye may be seeing see the abomination<946> of the desolation/ἐρημώσεως<2050>

Luke 21:20
Whenever yet ye may be seeing Jerusalem surrounded by war-troops,
then be knowing that come nigh desolating/ἐρήμωσις<2050> of Her

And the content of those cited passages will be naturally be what gets debated on this thread. What else is there to expect?

 

[Contenders Edge]

The word anti-christ isn't mentioned in the Olivet Discourse......start a thread on that.......

The Anti-Christ goes by more than just one title and perhaps I will start a thread on that subject if no one else beats me to it.

 

[Douggg]

In Luke 21 Jesus says to His followers to flee Jerusalem when they see the city surrounded by armies, not when they have entered the city and the Temple. In Matthew and Mark, He says that when the abomination of desolation is seen standing in the Temple to flee the city as well. There is no mention of armies surrounding Jerusalem then.

Good point.

 

[jgr]

You mean you haven't come across this passage? (2 Thessalonians chapter 2) You really do need to do some more reading.

I've copy/pasted and digitally searched for your "abomination of desolation" therein without success.

Are you sure you spelled it right?