Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

[LittleLambofJesus]

D P.................

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Matt 24:3 "full end/consummation of the age"

Matthew and Mark shows them on the Mount of Olives.
Peter and James and John and Andrew are shown in Mark
All 3 ask these 2 questions "when shall these be? and what the sign?"
Matthew 24 has "sign of Thy parousia<2952>
and full end of the age.
==============================
Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and consummation<4930> of the Age?

Mark 13
3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives over against the Temple,
Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him according to own
4 Tell us! when these shall be?
and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be consummated<4931>.

Luke 21
7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher!
when then shall these be being?
And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?
.

One thing I noticed when translating these verses from the Greek is the 3 Greek words:
G4930 G4831 and G1096.
========================
4930. sunteleia from 4931;
entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end.
4931. sunteleo from 4862 and 5055;
to complete entirely; generally, to execute (literally or figuratively):--end, finish, fulfil, make.
4862. sun a primary preposition
denoting union; with or together (but much closer than 3326 or 3844), i.e. by association............
5055. teleo from 5056;
to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt):--accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.
5056. telos from a primary tello
(to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act
=======================================
Matthew 24:3 Commentaries: Biblehub

Meyer's NT Commentary
καὶ συντελ. τοῦ αἰῶνος]
In the Gospels we find no trace of the millenarian ideas of the Apocalypse.
The τοῦ αἰῶνος, with the article, but not further defined, is to be understood as referring to the existing, the then current age of the world, i.e. to the αἰὼν οὗτος, which is brought to a close (συντέλεια) with the second coming, inasmuch as, with this latter event, the αἰὼν μέλλων begins. See on Matthew 13:39. The second coming, the resurrection and the last judgment, fall upon the ἐσχάτη ἡμέρα (John 6:39; John 11:24), which, as it will be the last day of the αἰὼν οὗτος in general, so of the ἐσχάτων ἡμερῶν (Acts 2:17; 2 Timothy 3:1; Jam 5:3; Hebrews 1:2; 2 Peter 3:3) in particular, or of the καιρὸς ἔσχατος (1 Peter 1:5), or of the χρόνος ἔσχατος (Judges 1:18; 1 Peter 1:20), which John likewise calls the ἐσχάτη ὥρα (1 John 2:18). This concluding period, which terminates with the last day, is to be characterized by abounding distress and wickedness (see on Galatians 1:4). The article was unnecessary before συντελείας, seeing that it is followed by the genitive of specification; Winer, p. 118 f. [E. T. 155].
=================================
Pulpit Commentary
Sign of thy coming (τῆς σῆς παρουσίας), and of the end of the world (συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος).
They look upon these two events as synchronous, or very closely connected. The word parousia, which in classical Greek means "presence," or "arrival," is used in the New Testament specially for the second advent of Christ to set up his eternal kingdom in full power and glory (see in this chapter vers. 27, 37, 39; and comp. 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, etc.). Referring to the same event, we find in some places the term "epiphany" used (see 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1), and in others "revelation" (ἀποκάλυψις, 1 Corinthians 1:7; 2 Thessalonians 1:7); but the three expressions denote simply the open establishment of Messiah's kingdom, indefnitely as to time and manner.

The phrase translated "the end of the world "means literally the consummation of the age (cf. Matthew 13:39; Hebrews 9:26); consummationis saeculi (Vulgate); i.e. the close of this present seen, in contradistinction from the future aeon, or the world to come. This is "the last time," "the last days," spoken of elsewhere (see 1 Peter 1:5; 1 John 2:18; and comp. Isaiah 2:2; Micah 4:1).
=============================
Luke 21:7
They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher!when then shall these be?
And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?

The KJV translates Strong's G1096 in the following manner: be (255x), come to pass (82x), be made (69x), be done (63x), come (52x), become (47x), God forbid (with G3361) (15x), arise (13x), have (5x), be fulfilled (3x), be married to (3x), be preferred (3x), not translated (14x), miscellaneous (4x), variations of 'done' (2x).

1096. ginomai ghin'-om-ahee a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
===================
Last 3 verses in Revelation

Revelation 18:2
and he did cry in might -- a great voice, saying, 'Fall, fall did Babylon the great, and she became<1096> a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird,

Revelation 21:6
and He said to me, 'It hath become<1096>! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End; I, to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely;

Revelation 22:6
And said to me: "These the Words Faithful and True. And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming<1096> In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.


Pulpit Commentary
Verse 7. - And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? St. Mark (Mark 13:3) tells us that these questioners were Peter and James, John and Andrew. They said to their Master, "When shall these things be, and what sign shall precede them?" They asked their question with mingled feelings of awe and gladness: of awe, for the ruin of their loved temple, and all that would probably accompany the catastrophe, was a dread thought; of gladness, for they associated the fall of city and temple with the manifestation of their Lord in glory. In this glory they would assuredly share. But they wished to know more respecting the times and seasons of the dread event. Of late the disciples had begun dimly to see that no Messianic restoration such as they had been taught to expect was contemplated by their Master. They were recasting their hopes, and this solemn prediction they read in the light of the late sad and gloomy words which he had spoken of himself and his fortunes. Perhaps he would leave them for a season and then return, and, amid the crash of the ruined city and temple, set up his glorious kingdom. But they longed to know when this would be; hence the question of the four. The Lord's answer treated, in its first and longer portion, exclusively of the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple - the fair city and the glorious house on which they were then gazing, glorified in the light of the sunset splendor; then, as he spoke, gradually the horizon widened, and the Master touched upon the fortunes of the great world lying beyond the narrow pale of the doomed, chosen people. He closes his grand summary of the world's fortunes By a sketch of his own return in glory. The disciples' hearts must have sunk as they listened; for how many ages lay Between now and then! Yet was the great prophecy full of comfort, and in later days was of inestimable practical value to the Jerusalem Christians. The discourse, which extends from ver. 8 to ver. 36, has been well divided by Godet into four divisions.

(1) The apparent signs of the great catastrophe, which must not Be mistaken for true signs (vers. 8b-19).

(2) The true sign, and the destruction of Jerusalem, which will immediately follow it, with the time of the Gentiles, which will be connected with it (vers. 20-24).

(3) The coming of the Lord, which will bring this period to an end (vers. 25-27).

(4) The practical application (vers. 28-36).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

When the disciples asked Jesus about His comments on the temple being destroyed, they didn't know they were asking about different events.. to them the destruction of Jerusalem was the end of the world. The answer Jesus gave was more for our understanding than theirs.

The 70ad destruction Jerusalem OC Mosaic Temple/Sanctuary and Priesthood was the essentionally the "end of their world" to them.........

The Significance of A.D. 70   |  Study Archive @ PreteristArchive.com - The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

"The loss of the Jerusalem Temple also meant that the Jewish religion had to transform ..... "Thus there was a final end to the Old Testament world: all was finished with a ..... Coming began to be fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD/
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived

THE goodness of God stamps all his proceedings. It has please Him not only to communicate to mankind a revelation, which, to the pious mind, bears in its internal texture its own evidence and recommendation, but also to accompany it with such external proofs of a sacred origin, as seem calculated to strike, with irresistible conviction, even those who are least disposed to admit the truth of the Holy Scriptures. In order to evidence their divine authenticity, God has done as much as man could possibly have required. [1] For, supposing that it had been referred to mankind to have prescribed for their own satisfaction, and that of their prosperity, the credentials which His messengers should bring with them, in order to authenticate the divinity of their mission, could the wisest and most skeptical amongst men have proposed, for this purpose, any thing more conclusive than,

 

[iamlamad]

The 70ad destruction Jerusalem OC Mosaic Temple/Sanctuary and Priesthood was the essentionally the "end of their world" to them.........

The Significance of A.D. 70 | Study Archive @ PreteristArchive.com - The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

"The loss of the Jerusalem Temple also meant that the Jewish religion had to transform ..... "Thus there was a final end to the Old Testament world: all was finished with a ..... Coming began to be fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD/
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived

THE goodness of God stamps all his proceedings. It has please Him not only to communicate to mankind a revelation, which, to the pious mind, bears in its internal texture its own evidence and recommendation, but also to accompany it with such external proofs of a sacred origin, as seem calculated to strike, with irresistible conviction, even those who are least disposed to admit the truth of the Holy Scriptures. In order to evidence their divine authenticity, God has done as much as man could possibly have required. [1] For, supposing that it had been referred to mankind to have prescribed for their own satisfaction, and that of their prosperity, the credentials which His messengers should bring with them, in order to authenticate the divinity of their mission, could the wisest and most skeptical amongst men have proposed, for this purpose, any thing more conclusive than,

No preterist has ever found when and where each trumpet judgement and each vial judgment with plagues happened. If all these things were in history, someone should be able to pinpoint them. People have done a very good job with Daniel 11 up to verse 35. Why not then with Revelation, chapter 8 to chapter 16?

Or perhaps preterists think God chose to do His final prophecy like Nostradamus - so inaccurate that it could fit many things?

 

[iamlamad]

One thing I noticed when translating these verses from the Greek is the 3 Greek words:
G4930 G4831 and G1096.
========================
4930. sunteleia from 4931;
entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end.
4931. sunteleo from 4862 and 5055;
to complete entirely; generally, to execute (literally or figuratively):--end, finish, fulfil, make.
4862. sun a primary preposition
denoting union; with or together (but much closer than 3326 or 3844), i.e. by association............
5055. teleo from 5056;
to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt):--accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.
5056. telos from a primary tello
(to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act
=======================================
Matthew 24:3 Commentaries: Biblehub

Meyer's NT Commentary
καὶ συντελ. τοῦ αἰῶνος]
In the Gospels we find no trace of the millenarian ideas of the Apocalypse.
The τοῦ αἰῶνος, with the article, but not further defined, is to be understood as referring to the existing, the then current age of the world, i.e. to the αἰὼν οὗτος, which is brought to a close (συντέλεια) with the second coming, inasmuch as, with this latter event, the αἰὼν μέλλων begins. See on Matthew 13:39. The second coming, the resurrection and the last judgment, fall upon the ἐσχάτη ἡμέρα (John 6:39; John 11:24), which, as it will be the last day of the αἰὼν οὗτος in general, so of the ἐσχάτων ἡμερῶν (Acts 2:17; 2 Timothy 3:1; Jam 5:3; Hebrews 1:2; 2 Peter 3:3) in particular, or of the καιρὸς ἔσχατος (1 Peter 1:5), or of the χρόνος ἔσχατος (Judges 1:18; 1 Peter 1:20), which John likewise calls the ἐσχάτη ὥρα (1 John 2:18). This concluding period, which terminates with the last day, is to be characterized by abounding distress and wickedness (see on Galatians 1:4). The article was unnecessary before συντελείας, seeing that it is followed by the genitive of specification; Winer, p. 118 f. [E. T. 155].
=================================
Pulpit Commentary
Sign of thy coming (τῆς σῆς παρουσίας), and of the end of the world (συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος).
They look upon these two events as synchronous, or very closely connected. The word parousia, which in classical Greek means "presence," or "arrival," is used in the New Testament specially for the second advent of Christ to set up his eternal kingdom in full power and glory (see in this chapter vers. 27, 37, 39; and comp. 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, etc.). Referring to the same event, we find in some places the term "epiphany" used (see 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1), and in others "revelation" (ἀποκάλυψις, 1 Corinthians 1:7; 2 Thessalonians 1:7); but the three expressions denote simply the open establishment of Messiah's kingdom, indefnitely as to time and manner.

The phrase translated "the end of the world "means literally the consummation of the age (cf. Matthew 13:39; Hebrews 9:26); consummationis saeculi (Vulgate); i.e. the close of this present seen, in contradistinction from the future aeon, or the world to come. This is "the last time," "the last days," spoken of elsewhere (see 1 Peter 1:5; 1 John 2:18; and comp. Isaiah 2:2; Micah 4:1).
=============================
Luke 21:7
They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher!when then shall these be?
And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?

The KJV translates Strong's G1096 in the following manner: be (255x), come to pass (82x), be made (69x), be done (63x), come (52x), become (47x), God forbid (with G3361) (15x), arise (13x), have (5x), be fulfilled (3x), be married to (3x), be preferred (3x), not translated (14x), miscellaneous (4x), variations of 'done' (2x).

1096. ginomai ghin'-om-ahee a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
===================
Last 3 verses in Revelation

Revelation 18:2
and he did cry in might -- a great voice, saying, 'Fall, fall did Babylon the great, and she became<1096> a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird,

Revelation 21:6
and He said to me, 'It hath become<1096>! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End; I, to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely;

Revelation 22:6
And said to me: "These the Words Faithful and True. And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming<1096> In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.


Pulpit Commentary
Verse 7. - And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? St. Mark (Mark 13:3) tells us that these questioners were Peter and James, John and Andrew. They said to their Master, "When shall these things be, and what sign shall precede them?" They asked their question with mingled feelings of awe and gladness: of awe, for the ruin of their loved temple, and all that would probably accompany the catastrophe, was a dread thought; of gladness, for they associated the fall of city and temple with the manifestation of their Lord in glory. In this glory they would assuredly share. But they wished to know more respecting the times and seasons of the dread event. Of late the disciples had begun dimly to see that no Messianic restoration such as they had been taught to expect was contemplated by their Master. They were recasting their hopes, and this solemn prediction they read in the light of the late sad and gloomy words which he had spoken of himself and his fortunes. Perhaps he would leave them for a season and then return, and, amid the crash of the ruined city and temple, set up his glorious kingdom. But they longed to know when this would be; hence the question of the four. The Lord's answer treated, in its first and longer portion, exclusively of the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple - the fair city and the glorious house on which they were then gazing, glorified in the light of the sunset splendor; then, as he spoke, gradually the horizon widened, and the Master touched upon the fortunes of the great world lying beyond the narrow pale of the doomed, chosen people. He closes his grand summary of the world's fortunes By a sketch of his own return in glory. The disciples' hearts must have sunk as they listened; for how many ages lay Between now and then! Yet was the great prophecy full of comfort, and in later days was of inestimable practical value to the Jerusalem Christians. The discourse, which extends from ver. 8 to ver. 36, has been well divided by Godet into four divisions.

(1) The apparent signs of the great catastrophe, which must not Be mistaken for true signs (vers. 8b-19).

(2) The true sign, and the destruction of Jerusalem, which will immediately follow it, with the time of the Gentiles, which will be connected with it (vers. 20-24).

(3) The coming of the Lord, which will bring this period to an end (vers. 25-27).

(4) The practical application (vers. 28-36).

For the readers: take note, John used Greek Aorist tense verbs almost exclusively in Revelation. We have no verbs like this in English. The Greek Aorist verbs show NO TENSE OR TIMING at all. In English, all verbs give away timing information. There is therefore no way to translate a Greek Aorist tense verb accurately into English.

Therefore to use such verses to show something happened in our past is just big time error. It is always necessary to see what kind of verb John used in every verse. Always remember, if it is an Greek Aorist verb, there is simply no timing information given.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Matt 24:3 "full end/consummation of the age"

Matthew and Mark shows them on the Mount of Olives.
Peter and James and John and Andrew are shown in Mark
All 3 ask these 2 questions "when shall these be? and what the sign?"
Matthew 24 has "sign of Thy parousia<2952>
and full end of the age.
==============================
Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and consummation<4930> of the Age?

Mark 13
3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives over against the Temple,
Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him according to own
4 Tell us! when these shall be?
and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be consummated<4931>.

Luke 21
7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher!
when then shall these be being?
And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?
===============================
Coincidentally, about 40yrs after this discourse is given, the Romans siege Jerusalem and according to Josephus, the 10th Legion, along with Titus encamped on the eastern side of the City on top of the Mount of Olivet, given them a clear view of the Temple.


Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com,

"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

Legion X soon joins them, making a separate camp on the Mt. of Olives, east of the city ... May 1, 70. Nissan/Xanthicus 14.

View attachment 252031

Matthew 24:3....and what the sign of Thy parousia and full-end of the Age?

Luke 19:43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee.[Revelation 18:8]and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee..
Luke 21:20 “Whenever ye see Jerusalem surrounded by armies,
then know that nigh is Her desolation.
=============================
Revelation 18
8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving Her blows death and sorrow and famine.
19 For to one hour She was desolated.”

....................................

............................

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No preterist has ever found when and where each trumpet judgement and each vial judgment with plagues happened. If all these things were in history, someone should be able to pinpoint them. People have done a very good job with Daniel 11 up to verse 35. Why not then with Revelation, chapter 8 to chapter 16?

Or perhaps preterists think God chose to do His final prophecy like Nostradamus - so inaccurate that it could fit many things?

For the readers: take note, John used Greek Aorist tense verbs almost exclusively in Revelation. We have no verbs like this in English. The Greek Aorist verbs show NO TENSE OR TIMING at all. In English, all verbs give away timing information. There is therefore no way to translate a Greek Aorist tense verb accurately into English.

Therefore to use such verses to show something happened in our past is just big time error. It is always necessary to see what kind of verb John used in every verse. Always remember, if it is an Greek Aorist verb, there is simply no timing information given.

Thank you for posting................

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Noah is mentioned in only 7 verses of the entire NT and only in Matt, Luke, and the Epistles of Hebrews and Peter

Matthew 24:
37 For even as the days of the Noah,
thus also shall be being the parousia of the Son of the Man
38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking and marrying an giving in marriage
until of which day Noah entered into the Ark.
39 And not they know until came the flood came and takes away<142> all.
Thus shall be being the parousia of the Son of the Man

This event is shown in Luke 17:

Luke 17:
26 And according as it became in the days of Noah
thus it shall be also in the days of the Son of the Man.
27 They ate, they drank, they married, they gave out in marriage,
until which day Noah entered into the Ark and came the flood and destroys<622> all.
========================
Luk 3:36
the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,

Heb 11:7
By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
1Pe 3:20
who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[fn] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
2 Peter 3:5
and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thanks to those that voted. And I agree with the majority on this.

Luke 21 and Revelation also go together........

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 the same event?

1. *
   Yes
   15 vote(s)
   78.9%
2. No
   2 vote(s)
   10.5%
3. I don't know
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
4. Other [please explain]
   2 vote(s)
   10.5%

==============================================
Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Revelation 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance<5281> and the faith of the Saints
=========================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made. Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves. Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings.
Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground. And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should "lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.) most strikingly and fully accomplished ! --
This fact is confirmed by Eusebius, who asserts that he himself saw the city lying in ruins ; and Josephus introduces Eleazer as exclaiming "Where is our great city, which, it was believed, GOD inhabited ? It is altogether rooted and torn up from its foundations ; and the only monument of it that remains, is the camp of its destroyers pitched amidst its reliques !"

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Anyone else want to comment on this thread?

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 the same event?

1. *
   Yes
   15 vote(s)
   78.9%
2. No
   2 vote(s)
   10.5%
3. I don't know
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
4. Other [please explain]
   2 vote(s)
   10.5%

 

[Contenders Edge]

Overall, the forthcoming end-time events spoken of by our Lord are world wide and do not just center around Jerusalem and Israel. It is only when we compare the details of the chapters of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 do we get a full picture of all that was said of the things to come.

To start with, Matthew, Mark, and Luke speak of things to come that are to come upon all of mankind: Wars and rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes, and pestilences in diverse places, false prophets and false messiahs who are able to perform lying signs and wonders in order to deceive many, hatred and persecution of the saints by all men; Luke adding unusual phenomena in the heavens, distressing events upon the earth; Matthew and Mark mentioning the signs to take place just prior to the return of Christ.

But where Luke differs from Matthew and Mark is that Matthew and Mark mention the abomination that causes desolation in the Temple of God. Luke, however, does not, but mentions a time that armies will be surrounding Jerusalem. In both cases, the saints are instructed to immediately flee.

Luke states that in the day that Jerusalem is surrounded by armies that there will be great wrath upon the people and his account in that case seems to be centered around the people of Israel. There is no doubt that Jesus foretold the destruction of the Temple (Mt. 24:2, Mk 13:2, Lk 21:6) and the desolation of Jerusalem (Mt. 23:37-38) which came to pass in 70 A.D. and has been argued by both Preterist and Dispensationalist be a fulfillment of Luke 21:20-24 and history itself no doubt attests to the desolation of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., but what is missing from that event is the abomination the causes desolation. History records no such figure defiling the Temple of God in the first century.

Therefore the abomination that causes desolation can only come at a time when another Temple is in place. Whereas Luke recounts Christ foretelling the desolation of Jerusalem, the desolation of Jerusalem is not specifically mentioned in Mark or Matthew. Just the abomination of desolation who is also known as the Anti-Christ and while Luke calls the day in which Jerusalem is made desolate a time of distress in the land of Israel and a time of vengeance, Matthew and Mark call the day of the Anti-Christ to be a time that is even worse than described by Luke; a time unlike any other time before or after and a time so terrible that it will take the return of Christ to prevent all life from perishing. (Mt. 24:21-22, Mk. 13:19-20)

Now the desolation of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple did not and would never have destroyed all of humanity or wiped all life on earth, but during the reign of the Anti-Christ, there will be death and destruction taking place at such a magnitude that if Christ does not return, all life will perish.

Putting together all three accounts, it could be argued that the events concerning Jerusalem in Luke 21 are not exactly the same as those written in Matthew or Mark.

 

[jgr]

what is missing from that event is the abomination the causes desolation. History records no such figure defiling the Temple of God in the first century.

That is because there was no "figure". That is a dispensational figment.

It was the Roman armies. (Luke 21:20)

 

[Contenders Edge]

That is because there was no "figure". That is a dispensational figment.

It was the Roman armies. (Luke 21:20)

The abomination of desolation is never called an army.

 

[jgr]

The abomination of desolation is never called an army.

It was called "armies" by Luke.

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

What recognized post-apostolic scholar before 1800 AD disagreed that Luke and Matthew were referring to the same event?

 

[mmksparbud]

It was called "armies" by Luke.

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

What recognized post-apostolic scholar before 1800 AD disagreed with him?

It says it is neigh---not that it was the armies, they only signaled the nearness of it.

 

[Erik Nelson]

think Dr. Kenneth Gentry is correct, that Matthew 24:35-36 transitions from the 1st century present to the future 2C @ FJ

If so, then JC clarified to the Apostles that the destruction of the physical temple was not going to be the same event as the future 2C @ FJ:

1. OD-1 = Matt 24 up to verse 35 = 1 Thess 4:15-17 = 70 AD and establishment of Christendom
2. OD-2 = Matt 24-25 after verse 35 = 1 Thess 5, 2 Thess 2 = future 2C @ FJ

 

[jgr]

It says it is neigh---not that it was the armies, they only signaled the nearness of it.

The armies were the abomination. (Matthew 24:15 parallel verse).

Their advance into Jerusalem, the holy city, signaled the approach of desolation.

What recognized post-apostolic scholar before 1800 AD disagreed that Luke and Matthew were referring to the same event?

 

[Contenders Edge]

It was called "armies" by Luke.

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

What recognized post-apostolic scholar before 1800 AD disagreed that Luke and Matthew were referring to the same event?

One thing for certain is that it is well established that in the second century A.D. that the Church widely believed in a forthcoming Anti-Christ who would demand to be worshipped as God but they did not believe him to be any of the Roman emperors. And if Luke and Matthew were referring to the same thing, why didn't Matthew just simply write "armies" rather than an abomination of desolation in the Holy Place?

 

[parousia70]

One thing for certain is that it is well established that in the second century A.D. that the Church widely believed in a forthcoming Anti-Christ who would demand to be worshipped as God but they did not believe him to be any of the Roman emperors.

Uninspired opinions are interesting, but can not be relied on as apostolic writ.

And if Luke and Matthew were referring to the same thing, why didn't Matthew just simply write "armies" rather than an abomination of desolation in the Holy Place?

Because God wanted us to be able to cross reference the PARALLEL TEXTS to understand they are the same thing/event/point in time.

And any beginning Bible expositor knows that PARALLEL TEXTS can not be interpreted to have POLAR OPPOSITE meanings.

Bible 101

 

[Contenders Edge]

Uninspired opinions are interesting, but can not be relied on as apostolic writ.

That I can agree with.

Because God wanted us to be able to cross reference the PARALLEL TEXTS to understand they are the same thing/event/point in time.

And any beginning Bible expositor knows that PARALLEL TEXTS can not be interpreted to have POLAR OPPOSITE meanings.

Bible 101

And any expositor should also know that Parallel texts do not talk about two different things and that just because there may be some similarities between two texts, that does not necessarily mean that they are talking about the same thing or the same event. Expositors also take every detail of the compared texts into account.