Matthew 24:40-41

[5thKingdom]

"I have."
Well guess what .... I do not think you have
What is .... is
I can straighten out the kink for you, but what bothers me is your up front presumptuous attitude
This tells me that you will not consider a more congruent view different from yours .... and I have no time for argumentation
... discussion, maybe? .... argument .... no

Sir...

When you can discuss the Great Tribulation from MORE than just
the perspective of a SINGLE KINGDOM - then we should "discuss".

When you can discuss the Great Tribulation from the perspective
of TWO KINGDOMS (or two Beasts) then we should "discuss" that Truth.

When you can discuss the Great Tribulation from the perspectives of both
the COMPLETED KINGDOM and from the perspective of the DESTROYED KINGDOM....
Then we certainly should "discuss" all of the passages that harmonize.

Unfortunately you do not even understand the SINGLE KINGDOM because
you cannot harmonize the EVENTS/EXPERIENCES of the "Ten Virgins"
into your existing Eschatology.

Let me say that again... right NOW you cannot harmonize the Bible verses
recording the events/experiences of the "Ten Virgins" into your eschatology
AND you are (apparently) comfortable with an eschatology that contradicts
Scripture - not just about the "Ten Virgins" but also the DUAL KINGDOMS
the COMPLETED KINGDOMS and the DESTROYED KINGDOM.


So, you are correct, there is nothing for us to "discuss" unless/until
you can harmonize your eschatology with ALL SCRIPTURE..

.

 

[Straightshot]

"When you can discuss the Great Tribulation from the perspective
of TWO KINGDOMS (or two Beasts) then we should "discuss" that Truth"


Ha Ha .... you take the cake for making up stories son

The two "beasts" of Revelation are not "kingdoms" in the first place

Until you figure this out there is no need for discussion

The symbolic "animal" beasts given in Daniel's visions do represent successive human Middle Eastern kingdoms and the related human king positions

The "beast's" in Revelation's unfolding are very different entities

Daniel sees 4 of the human kingdoms .... 3 are now historical .... and 1 future and final kingdom composed of first a "smaller" Middle Eastern kingdom, and then a greater and final expanded/divided kingdom .... the scope of his presentation does not include the 2 prior kingdoms of the set of the 5 past now fallen

There are only 7 kingdoms [heads] of the first beast of Revelation given in the set presented .... the 5th has fallen [the Syrian Seleucid dynasty just before the first century]

This beast rules all 7 for Satan specifically in the Middle East .... and this beast is not a "kingdom" [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-18]

He is a fallen angel like Satan who will give him his power and authority on the earth

When Abaddon's 5th human kingdom fell he was cast into the abyss [once was ruling, now is not not ruling, and will rule again ..... he will be released by Satan at the time of the end of this present age to rule the Middle East again [Revelation 9:1]

This same angelic beast's trappings are represented symbolically in Revelation 13 just as they appear in the book of Daniel .... 3 of his assigned kingdoms of the past .... leopard, bear, and lion

He will also rule over the next [his 7th of the set of 7] at the time of the end with 10 other human kings at his command

Daniel's future human little horn [king] will rule both the 6th [smaller] and next 7th for Abaddon ..... the little horn will then be fully possessed by Abaddon for the remaining 42 months [1260 days] of the 2520 days set out for the coming tribulation period .... this possession will produce Abaddon as the 8th king ruling over his 7th and final kingdom

There are many things wrong with your claimed related rendering and harmonizing .... and until you understand that there is a difference between the noted human kingdoms and the first beast of Revelation you will never arrive at a viable solution

 

[5thKingdom]

"When you can discuss the Great Tribulation from the perspective
of TWO KINGDOMS (or two Beasts) then we should "discuss" that Truth"

1) Since you know so much, please explain HOW the PEOPLE in Daniel's 4th Beast
are given to the "Burning Flame" (aka "Lake of Fire") while the PEOPLE in Daniel's
previous Beasts remain on earth for a "Season and Time" Dan 7:11-12


2) And please tell me WHEN Matthew 25:1-5 occurred in history....
Was it when the Saints "went forth" into the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom?
Was it when the Saints "went forth" into the (3rd) Christian Kingdom?
Was it when the Saints "went forth" into the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom?
----------------
Or is it some FUTURE EVENT?
Just tell me WHEN these Wise and Foolish Virgins "went forth"?
Can you do that?

.

 

[Bible2]

5thKingdom said in post 94:

YOU sir cannot harmonize the events/experiences of the "Ten Virgins" . . .

The 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

5thKingdom said in post 94:

And while the Bible presents at least 3 different passages showing the GT as being a COMPLETED KINGDOM of Daniel's 4 Beasts.... you ignore this also.

In Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). The 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. The 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

5thKingdom said in post 94:

And while the Bible presents at least 3 different passages showing the GT as being a DESTROYED KINGDOM... you cannot handle those passages.

Are you thinking of Daniel 7:11-12?

If so, regarding the preceding context, Daniel 7:10b could refer to the judgment of only the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Matthew 25:19-30, Luke 12:45-48), which judgment will occur, along with the marriage of the church (Revelation 19:7), shortly before Jesus defeats the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast, by casting him into the lake of fire (Daniel 7:11b, Revelation 19:20).

So Daniel 7:11a could refer to the Antichrist, the voice of the horn, shortly before his destruction in Daniel 7:11b and Revelation 19:20, speaking great blasphemies against YHWH God (cf. Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) to try to build up the morale of the world's armies, which will have gathered together in an attempt to fight YHWH (Revelation 19:19, Revelation 16:14).

Daniel 7:11b refers to the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast, being cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20). In Daniel 7, the Antichrist is considered to be part of the 4th beast (Daniel 7:23-25).

Daniel 7:12 doesn't require that the prior beasts didn't have their dominion (their empires) taken away before the Antichrist's destruction in Daniel 7:11b and Revelation 19:20, but can simply mean that they are different from the Antichrist in that they had a (post-empire) existence, in the sense that Babylon, even after its defeat as an empire in the 6th century BC, continued as a thriving city for centuries (and has even been rebuilt in our time), and Medo-Persia continues as Iraq and Iran, and Greece continues as a nation, and Rome continues as Italy. Also, Iraq, Iran, Greece, and Italy could continue to exist as distinct nations (not empires) during the future millennium of Revelation 20:4-6, which won't begin until after the Antichrist's future destruction in Revelation 19:20, at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3.

 

[Bible2]

Straightshot said in post 95:

And those that refute the Lord's intent to call His true ecclesia before He brings His unmitigated wrath upon an intransigent unbelieving world will not participate in the calling [Revelation 3:15-19]

Do you mean that there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing that it is pre-tribulation? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured (gathered together) at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

Straightshot said in post 95:

And those that refute the Lord's intent to call His true ecclesia before He brings His unmitigated wrath upon an intransigent unbelieving world will not participate in the calling [Revelation 3:15-19]

Note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

[Bible2]

Straightshot said in post 102:

The two "beasts" of Revelation are not "kingdoms" in the first place

That's right.

For the beast which comes up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11-16 represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a secretly-apostate pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What is more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in 2 religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the 2 horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the 7 horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding 7 positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say that he is Jesus. (But he won't say that he is Christ, for the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

 

[5thKingdom]

The 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31)....

So... according to you, these events happen "immediately after the Great Tribulation?


Mat 25:1-4 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.


Question: Who are these "Wise and Foolish Virgins"?
If they are all of the "wheat" and the "tares" of the Church Age,...
and this is AFTER the Great Trib.... where are all the people who are non-Christian?


Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.


If these EVENTS occur "immediately after the (Great) Tribulation"....
then WHAT is this event (they all slumbered and slept)?
What are the "Ten Virgins" doing at this time?
And what are non-Christians doing?


Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.


When is the "midnight cry"...
Apparently (according to you) it is AFTER the Great Tribulation
and AFTER the Ten Virgins "slumbered and slept"....
So explain this chronology of the "midnight cry" AFTER the Great Tribulation
and AFTER the period of the Virgins "sleeping"?


Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.


Now (according to you) the Foolish Virgins ("tares") ask the Wise Virgins ("wheat")
to give them the Holy Spirit (oil)... so the questions are:

1. Does this mean the "tares" are seeking salvation AFTER the Great Trib?
2. Why do the "wheat" REFUSE TO PREACH to the "tares"?
3. Who are the people the "wheat" send the "tares" to for salvation?


Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.


If the "wheat" (Wise Virgins) are taken into the "Marriage" while the "tares"
are seeking salvation from some unknown group of people.... what happens
to (a) the "tares" and (b) those preaching to the "tares" and (c) the non-Christians,
AFTER the "wheat" is taken into the Marriage and "the Door was Shut"?

Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


Finally... What is this period on earth AFTER the "Door was shut" when the "tares"
are complaining they have been left-behind? And where are the people who
were preaching to the "tares"? And where are the non-Christians?


Obviously (according to you) there are many EVENTS happening on earth
AFTER the Great Tribulation is finished - including the "wheat" telling the "tares"
to seek salvation from some unknown group of people....
Can you explain your eschatology?


.

 

[Interplanner]

I wouldn't spend anytime on B2. It's mind-numbing, robotic "theology" at its worst, with almost no sensibility.

Our view of the worldwide judgement of God should be as short and swift as possible. That is the only thing that is clear and accurate. There is no need at all for the effort here that goes into spelling out tons of details, many of which prob had to do with the events in Israel in the 5th to 7th decades of the 1st century anyway. Because Mt24A has gravity and keeps pulling these things to itself and its warnings about the DofJ.

 

[Straightshot]

But you just did IP

The Lord has given details for a reason

And you say ignore Him

Risky

 

[n2thelight]

Then shall two be in a field: the one shall be TAKEN, and the other LEFT. Two women shall be grinding at the mill: the one shall be TAKEN and the other LEFT. Watch therefore: for you know not what hour your Lord does come.”


The PRE-tribulation view maintains that those who are TAKEN are Christians who are taken to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb and therefore those TAKEN shall escape the great tribulation period, while those LEFT BEHIND will have to go through the great tribulation.

However, this is NOT what the Bible teaches what this verse means. Let's keep this verse in the context of where it is found and let the Bible interpret itself.


Back up a few verses to Mathew 24:36-39 and read,


"But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37. But as the days of Noe (Noah) were, so shall ALSO the coming of the Son of man be.
38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe (Noah) entered the ark.
39. And knew NOT until the flood came, and TOOK them all away; so shall ALSO the coming of the Son of man be."


Notice here that Jesus is comparing his COMING to the days of Noah and says, "as in the days of Noah so shall ALSO be the day of the Son of man", when he comes again. People in Noah's day went about living their lives taking NO heed to Noah's preaching. Jesus said they went about eating and drinking as if nothing were going to happen and they KNEW NOT or refused to believe UNTIL the flood came and TOOK them all away to destruction.

You see, here in the days of Noah it is the WICKED who were TAKEN and destroyed and the RIGHTEOUS who were LEFT ALIVE and REMAIN.

Now look at the passage of scripture that is use to teach the rapture or being caught up into heaven to meet the Lord in the air.

Please read 1 Thessalonians 4:15, which teaches us that there will be Christians who have SURVIVED and have REMAINED ALIVE unto the COMING of the Lord.


"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are ALIVE and REMAIN unto the coming of the Lord...."


The word “remain” here means to be LEFT. In other words, those Christians who are LEFT ALIVE or those who have REMAINED ALIVE will not prevent or go before those who have died in Christ, but TOGETHER we will all be changed in a twinkling of an eye and then be CAUGHT UP into the AIR to be GATHERED TOGETHER by the angels and then taken to MEET Jesus in the AIR over the place called ARMAGEDDON to execute the vengeance and WRATH of Almighty God.


The wicked are going to be TAKEN and destroyed just like it was in the days of NOAH when Jesus returns, while the RIGHTEOUS will be LEFT ALIVE and kept safe just like in the days of NOAH.

But the PRE-tribulation doctrine FALSELY teaches that those LEFT are LEFT BEHIND to endure the time of GREAT TRIBULATION, and the ones TAKEN are the church who are supposedly taken up to heaven for 7 years to eat the marriage supper of the Lamb and receive the reward or crown of eternal life, which totally contradicts what the CONTEXT of the verse in question teaches us.



Look at Matthew 13:24-30 where Jesus tells us what the kingdom of God is like.


"...The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed GOOD seed in his field: but while the man slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, did not you sow good seed in your field? From whence then has it tares?
He said unto them an enemy has done this. The servants said unto him, Will you then we go and gather them up? But he said Nay; lest you gather up the tares, you root up also the wheat with them.
Let them both grow together UNTIL the HARVEST: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers (the angels), gather you together FIRST the TARES, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."


Now the Bible interprets this passage of scripture for us in this very same chapter. Skip down to verses 36-43 and read;


"Then Jesus sent the multitudes away, and went into the house; and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us this parable of the tares in the field.
He answered and said unto them, He that sows the GOOD seed is the Son of man; The field is the WORLD; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the TARES are the children of the WICKED one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the HARVEST is the END of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the TARES are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the END of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that OFFEND, and them which do INIQUITY; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. THEN (after the wicked are gathered and destroyed by fire) shall the RIGHTEOUS shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let him hear."


Notice that Jesus said the TARES are the WICKED, and then notice that the TARES or that is to say the WICKED are TAKEN FIRST to be burned and that RIGHTEOUS are LEFT ALIVE and THEN are gathered together into the kingdom of their Father.

So you see, those that teach the PRE-tribulation view of the rapture have NOT correctly divided the word of God, when they try and say that those who are TAKEN are the righteous and the others are LEFT BEHIND to go through the great tribulation period.

Let's read the passage of scripture quoted in Matthew 24:40-42 about the one being taken and the other left from the gospel of Luke charter 17. Read verses 34-36


"I tell you in that night there shall be two men in on bed; one shall be TAKEN, and the other shall be LEFT. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be TAKEN, and the other LEFT. Two men shall be in a field; the one shall be TAKEN, and the other LEFT."


Again keeping these verse in the context where they are found let us see what the Bible says about those who are taken. Read the very next verse,
Luke 17:37;


"And they answered and said unto him. WHERE Lord?"


Notice that in this very next verse after talking about one being TAKEN and the other on left the disciples ask Jesus WHERE Lord? In other words Lord WHERE are they TAKEN? Then Jesus goes on to say in the rest of verse 37;


"Wheresoever the BODY is, there will the EAGLES be gathered."


What a seemingly peculiar answer that Jesus gave to his disciples about where they are taken.
What does Jesus mean by this seeming odd answer that he gave his disciples and us to the question of WHERE Lord will they we TAKEN?
So then, to WHOM do the BODIES belong to which were TAKEN or killed? And to WHOM does the EAGLES refer to that will be GATHERED?
Now if you cross reference this verse through the Bible you will find that Jesus is referring to the CARCASSES of the WICKED who were slain at the COMING of Jesus.
But before we do this let's back up to verses 28-30 of Luke 17;


"Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but the SAME DAY that Lot went OUT of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all (speaking of the destruction of the WICKED in Sodom). EVEN THUS (or EVEN in the SAME WAY) shall it BE in the day WHEN the Son of man is revealed."


Notice that it says the SAME DAY that fire and brimstone rained down from heaven and destroyed all the WICKED that were in Sodom that it was the very SELFSAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom. And Jesus said that this is the way that it will be in the day of the Son of man when he is revealed or comes again.
On the very SAME DAY God will destroy all the WICKED by FIRE, but the RIGHTEOUS will be LEFT ALIVE and REMAIN unharmed by the fire at his coming again.
Now I know this is backward to what a great many of us have been taught from those that teach the PRE-tribulation point of view, but this is a VITAL TRUTH that you must embrace IF you do not want to be in the number whose hearts FAIL them for fear of the things coming upon the earth.
The Church, that is to say all believers are going to go THROUGH the ENTIRE period of the GREAT TRIBULATION. This is what the word of God without a doubt teaches.

THE RAPTURE: ONE TAKEN AND ONE LEFT - A Matter of Truth

 

[Danoh]

"The Pre-Trib view is..."

So begins the assertion of those who are against Pre-Tribulationism...

As if lumping together all Pre-Tribbers as to one or another of our assertions proves we all hold to said particular assertion.

All it does is reveal a sloppiness on the part of the individual asserting such an overall, one size fits all notion against all Pre-Tribbers.

I am Pre-Trib. I do NOT hold to Rev. 3:10 as a reference to a Pre-Trib event.

Lump all together you not only end up believing your own false positive, but blinded by it from even being able to consider the much more valid assertion of sone other Pre-Tribber.

I suspect posting views on here to others other than the one said respective other holds to, is a waste of time.

The level of narrow minded minds already made up on the part of most on these threads is sadly a very high level.

Few appear to actually attempt to objectively study the view of others.

What is it - is it that there are that many that ill preared for what studying a thing out objectively, requires?

 

[Interplanner]

The time of unequalled distress was in the 1st century says Mt24A. There may be a time of conflict for believers before the day of judgement (Rev 20:9) but its not what Mt24A was about. Many of the discussions are bogus because they are all set up mistakenly.

 

[riverrat]

The time of unequalled distress was in the 1st century says Mt24A. There may be a time of conflict for believers before the day of judgement (Rev 20:9) but its not what Mt24A was about. Many of the discussions are bogus because they are all set up mistakenly.

I agree. Your continuous preterist discussions are bogus.