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Matthew 24:40-41

iamlamad

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"The bible certainly does not give the idea that the Lord killed him!"


Enoch died a natural death and the Lord received His spirit .... just like any other human

The human spirit returns to the Lord who makes it

And there are none of the Lord's ecclesia already in "heaven" and in the state of immortality .... all of the dead in Christ are still waiting for His call

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 attest to this fact .... all of the dead are "sleeping" no time passing for them .... they are not aware of it [Ecclesiastes 9:5]

And they will all awake at the Lord's call [1 Thessalonians 4:13-18] and will be caught up along with the living at the time

The thief on the cross is still waiting, but the next thing that he will be aware of after his death is the Lord's call to wake him ..... no time passing for him

No man has gone to heaven [made immortal with an immortal body] except the One who has come down from heaven

There are no contradictions in scripture and the human out of the physical body does not experience time passing like it does when one is in the physical body


Oh my! And I thought you were a straight shooter. Now you are teaching the false doctrine of soul sleep. Will doctrines of devils never end?

How could you be so right in other places and so wrong here? All who have died in Christ are very much ALIVE in heaven now, just separated from their flesh and blood body. Same with all the righteous from the Old Covenant.

May I suggest you camp out on the story of the rich man and Lazarus until you get it? There is NO SUCH THING as soul sleep. That is a doctrine of devils.

Even that story is not pertinent for today, for when Jesus rose He took all those imprisoned in Hades to heaven with Him. "Paradise" where Lazarus was then is empty today.
 
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Straightshot

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"Oh my! And I thought you were a straight shooter. Now you are teaching the false doctrine of soul sleep"


Oh my, I think you are a bit presumptuous

The scriptures tell you that the dead know nothing and that the dead in Christ are sleeping ..... check it out [Ecclesiastes 9:5; 12:7; Acts 7:60; 13:361 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:14]

The JW's just got lucky on this one

When a man dies physically his spirit returns to the Lord from whence it came .... and the Lord preserves the same

No man has gone to heaven [yet] except the One who has come down from heaven

The Lord told the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise "today"

How would this be possible?

Because the thief's spirit is waiting even to this day for His resurrection explained in 1 1 Corinthians 15:51 -58

So to him his next awareness after his death is the same .... no time passing for him as it does on the earth

As straight as I see it from the scriptures .... the spirit world is different than the material world, a different dimension

There is no time passing .... this is why the Lord said "I am" to his antagonists who were bragging about their relationship to Abraham

He said "before Abraham was, I am"

Once created, the human spirit enters the material world in a material body

Upon physical death the spirit returns to the Lord where He keeps them all [believers and unbelievers alike]

He then will bring both to a consummation .... some to eternal life, and some to the second death of their spirits [Revelation 20:11-15]


Daniel
12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
 
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iamlamad

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"Oh my! And I thought you were a straight shooter. Now you are teaching the false doctrine of soul sleep"


Oh my, I think you are a bit presumptuous

The scriptures tell you that the dead know nothing and that the dead in Christ are sleeping ..... check it out [Ecclesiastes 9:5; 12:7; Acts 7:60; 13:361 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:14]

The JW's just got lucky on this one

When a man dies physically his spirit returns to the Lord from whence it came .... and the Lord preserves the same

No man has gone to heaven [yet] except the One who has come down from heaven

The Lord told the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise "today"

How would this be possible?

Because the thief's spirit is waiting even to this day for His resurrection explained in 1 1 Corinthians 15:51 -58

So to him his next awareness after his death is the same .... no time passing for him as it does on the earth

As straight as I see it from the scriptures .... the spirit world is different than the material world, a different dimension

There is no time passing .... this is why the Lord said "I am" to his antagonists who were bragging about their relationship to Abraham

He said "before Abraham was, I am"

Once created, the human spirit enters the material world in a material body

Upon physical death the spirit returns to the Lord where He keeps them all [believers and unbelievers alike]

He then will bring both to a consummation .... some to eternal life, and some to the second death of their spirits [Revelation 20:11-15]


Daniel
12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

It is FALSE doctrine. Your theories are OUTSIDE the "pale or Orthodoxy" of the church of Jesus Christ.

Now go back to what the NEW TESTAMENT tells us: in the case of the rich man: did His spirit go back to God? NO!!!! It (he) went to hell! Did the spirit of Lazarus go back to God? NO! It (he) went to Paradise.

The New testament ALWAYS is the last word on something found in both testaments. Will you believe Solomon (in his human wisdom) or will be believe the Christ, who ONLY spoke what He heard the Father say?

Hmmm. Did Jesus' spirit wait "even to this day?" NO! Jesus' Spirit (the REAL Him) went to paradise after He left His body, hanging on the cross. The thief also went to paradise.

I know this will start an uproar, but it is TRUTH: Solomon wrote in HUMAN wisdom and it was accurately and faithfully recorded in our bible. But what he wrote WAS NOT inspired by God. That is why we should ALWAYS take a New Testament scripture over an Old Testament scripture on any subject. Jesus words FAR outweigh what Solomon wrote. He wrote in human wisdom. He was wrong. The New Testament shows us that the spirit and soul of a righteous man (born again) goes straight to heaven. The spirit and soul of a sinner goes straight to hell.

This has been taught in the church for centuries. It is part of "what we believe" in many denominations. It should be, for it is truth.

AS for Solomon's writings, ask yourself this question: was the many chapters in the book of Job about his three friends inspired by God? Did God inspire them to say what they said? Be careful how you answer, because in the end God said that everything they said was WRONG. It was faithfully and accurately written down, but it was NOT "God breathed." They had human wisdom, which in Job's case was dead wrong.

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him

It is very plain that they were not in soul sleep!

"
Lazarus was "carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom."" This is NOT "soul sleep!" Was his body carried? No! It was buried. It was his SPIRIT with his SOUL that was carried to Abraham's Bosom.

"
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”"

HOW IN THE WORLD (or in heaven) could Jesus BRING WITH HIM the spirits of those who have died in Christ, if their spirit and soul NEVER GOT to heaven? OF COURSE they went to heaven upon death, and Jesus will bring them with Him when He comes.

Note that for the resurrection of the wicked, "death and hell" gave up their dead. In other words, PEOPLE were in hell. Their body? NOT! It was buried and turned to dust. It was their SPIRIT and SOUL in hell.
 
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Straightshot

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Well that is what you think

OK with me ..... but I believe your are wrong

However, it really does not matter

What is .... is, and what will be .... will be

What I note about your response is your angry reply to me, and this usually is an indication depicting the lack of one's confidence

Otherwise you would just state your case about what you believe and why

I would suggest that you consider a better way of delivery if you want other posters to learn anything from you
 
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jduck1986

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It is FALSE doctrine. Your theories are OUTSIDE the "pale or Orthodoxy" of the church of Jesus Christ.

Now go back to what the NEW TESTAMENT tells us: in the case of the rich man: did His spirit go back to God? NO!!!! It (he) went to hell! Did the spirit of Lazarus go back to God? NO! It (he) went to Paradise.

The New testament ALWAYS is the last word on something found in both testaments. Will you believe Solomon (in his human wisdom) or will be believe the Christ, who ONLY spoke what He heard the Father say?

Hmmm. Did Jesus' spirit wait "even to this day?" NO! Jesus' Spirit (the REAL Him) went to paradise after He left His body, hanging on the cross. The thief also went to paradise.

I know this will start an uproar, but it is TRUTH: Solomon wrote in HUMAN wisdom and it was accurately and faithfully recorded in our bible. But what he wrote WAS NOT inspired by God. That is why we should ALWAYS take a New Testament scripture over an Old Testament scripture on any subject. Jesus words FAR outweigh what Solomon wrote. He wrote in human wisdom. He was wrong. The New Testament shows us that the spirit and soul of a righteous man (born again) goes straight to heaven. The spirit and soul of a sinner goes straight to hell.

This has been taught in the church for centuries. It is part of "what we believe" in many denominations. It should be, for it is truth.

AS for Solomon's writings, ask yourself this question: was the many chapters in the book of Job about his three friends inspired by God? Did God inspire them to say what they said? Be careful how you answer, because in the end God said that everything they said was WRONG. It was faithfully and accurately written down, but it was NOT "God breathed." They had human wisdom, which in Job's case was dead wrong.

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him

It is very plain that they were not in soul sleep!

"
Lazarus was "carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom."" This is NOT "soul sleep!" Was his body carried? No! It was buried. It was his SPIRIT with his SOUL that was carried to Abraham's Bosom.

"
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”"

HOW IN THE WORLD (or in heaven) could Jesus BRING WITH HIM the spirits of those who have died in Christ, if their spirit and soul NEVER GOT to heaven? OF COURSE they went to heaven upon death, and Jesus will bring them with Him when He comes.

Note that for the resurrection of the wicked, "death and hell" gave up their dead. In other words, PEOPLE were in hell. Their body? NOT! It was buried and turned to dust. It was their SPIRIT and SOUL in hell.

the richman and lazarus is a parable and the entirety of the bible is inspired by God. to say otherwise is to teach unorthodoxy. so you're guilty of what you blame him for. also calm down.
 
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riverrat

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"the richman and lazarus is a parable"


This is true ..... a message is conveyed by the Lord to the unbelieving Jews

Not a literal account for sure
Don't be so sure. Christ's earthly ministry was to the lost sheep of the house of Israel with only very few exceptions. But IMO this does not mean that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not meant to be take literally. Combined with the account of the thief on the cross in Luke chapter 23 and and the Ephesians 4 account of Christ leading captivity captive leads me to believe that it should be taken literally.
 
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James-49

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"the richman and lazarus is a parable"


This is true ..... a message is conveyed by the Lord to the unbelieving Jews

Not a literal account for sure

That would mean Jesus made up a story knowing it wasn't true - maybe rethink your position.
 
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iamlamad

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Well that is what you think

OK with me ..... but I believe your are wrong

However, it really does not matter

What is .... is, and what will be .... will be

What I note about your response is your angry reply to me, and this usually is an indication depicting the lack of one's confidence

Otherwise you would just state your case about what you believe and why

I would suggest that you consider a better way of delivery if you want other posters to learn anything from you

No, you must have read something not there. I am not and was not angry at you. If anything I was greatly disappointed that you would teach false doctrine. I was surprised that you would write something so far from the "pale of Orthodoxy" or what is common beliefs of the church. Up until that post you were pretty much right on.

I thought stating my case and backing it with scripture is what I did. Can you show me perhaps some words that led you to believe I was angry?
 
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iamlamad

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Don't be so sure. Christ's earthly ministry was to the lost sheep of the house of Israel with only very few exceptions. But IMO this does not mean that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not meant to be take literally. Combined with the account of the thief on the cross in Luke chapter 23 and and the Ephesians 4 account of Christ leading captivity captive leads me to believe that it should be taken literally.

Indeed, don't be sure at all, because a parable is not about certain people with names. This is a story about real people that died.

But, even if it WAS a parable, what difference would it make? Jesus always taught TRUTH with His parables. We can be absolutely sure that when sinners die they end up in fire, and when the righteous die, they end up with Jesus. Good job, Riverrat!
 
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iamlamad

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the richman and lazarus is a parable and the entirety of the bible is inspired by God. to say otherwise is to teach unorthodoxy. so you're guilty of what you blame him for. also calm down.

So you are telling us that Job's three friends spoke to Job as they were inspired by God, but then later God changed His mind and told Job that everything they said was wrong.

No, I don't think so! People were inspired by God to include what those three men said into the cannon of scripture. They were inspired to include the entire book of Job. In fact the writer of this book of Job was inspired by God to write it. But we CANNOT say that what Job's three friends said was inspired by God, for at the end of the story, God made it clear that what they said was WRONG!

Neither, for example, can we say that what Peter said to Jesus was inspired by God, for Jesus said, "get behind me, Satan!" Peter was NOT being inspired by God to speak what he spoke then. The writer was inspired to write down what Peter said, and that part was inspired, but Peter's words to Jesus were NOT inspired by God. It would be silly to even think so.

This is what Paul had in mind by rightly dividing the scriptures. Every word we read was inspired by God to be written down, but not inspired by God as it was spoken originally. It was faithfully recorded, but not inspired.

If the rich man and Lazarus is a parable, then it would be the ONLY parable about real people that really lived and died. And IF it was a parable, it makes no difference, for Jesus would NOT teach anything false, even in a parable. We can therefore be SURE when a sinner dies, they go to hell. When a righteous man dies, they go to heaven.
 
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Straightshot

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It is a parable for explaining the severity of the future punishment for those who were rejecting him in the first century .... the unregenerate of Israel

The Lord's story does not tell that some humans are already in heaven and some are in hell

This idea is not congruent with many other scriptures that tell a very different truth
 
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James-49

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"the richman and lazarus is a parable"


This is true ..... a message is conveyed by the Lord to the unbelieving Jews

Not a literal account for sure

That would mean Jesus made up a story knowing it wasn't true - maybe rethink your position.

- posted once again
 
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iamlamad

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It is a parable for explaining the severity of the future punishment for those who were rejecting him in the first century .... the unregenerate of Israel

The Lord's story does not tell that some humans are already in heaven and some are in hell

This idea is not congruent with many other scriptures that tell a very different truth

Of course it tells that at lease one was in torment and one was not. You can ignore what it plainly says if you choose - it is just not wise. Today we call that place of torment hell. In the past 20 years or so, God has taken many people to see hell, and let them come back and tell others, and write about it. God wants ALL to know that hell is very real. Of course, you can ignore all these stories too, if you choose. However, when we have maybe 20 or 30 testimonies of hell, and they all agree with each other and agree with the written word, why not just believe them? Some of them have named names of REAL PEOPLE we know of that are in hell. They SAW them. They KNEW who they were. In some cases Jesus told them WHY they were there.

Again God has taken many to heaven so they can can come back and tell others. They all agree and agree with the Word of God. Why not just believe them?

One thing is for sure; Jesus, God in the flesh - the very God that CANNOT Lie - would not tell an untruth even in a parable. Whatever Jesus said in that story (it really isn't a parable) is TRUTH. When a sinner dies, they are taken to hell, where there is flames and torment.

This was not the only time Jesus spoke of the torment of hell.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 18:8
“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

Mark 9:
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where ‘Their worm does not dieAnd the fire is not quenched


If you chose to put more emphasis on and Old Testament verse, speaking from man's wisdom, it is your choice. It is not wise, but you can do it. However, even the Old Testament tells us people are alive in hell.


Job 26
“The dead tremble, Those under the waters and those inhabiting them.


Ezek 32:
The strong among the mighty Shall speak to him out of the midst of hell
With those who help him: ‘They have gone down, They lie with the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’



Isa 14:9 “Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations. 10 They all shall speak and say to you: ‘Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us? 11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.’


Again I ask, when Jesus died, did the spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) go into sleep? Did the soul of God (The Father on the throne) go with the Spirit of God into "soul sleep?" YOU KNOW the answer. OF COURSE they did not! And neither does the human spirit and soul go into some kind of sleep. We are created in His image and after His likeness.
 
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5thKingdom

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"Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left."

I am wondering if anyone could attempt to interpret this passage of scripture for me, whatever your eschatology belief is. I actually welcome different points of view on this. Thanks.

-------------


This is a picture of the Final Harvest.

In this picture you see that there are TWO existing together at "the end",
these TWO represent the PEOPLE living at time of the Final Harvest which
occurs from Daniel's (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom.



However, contrary to traditional eschatology and common opinion,
after the "wheat" are "taken"... the "tares" are left-behind while
the 4th Kingdom (of Babylon) is destroyed. In fact, you see this same picture
in Rev 18:4 as the Lord commands the "wheat" to "Come Out of Her".


These PEOPLE who exist together during the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom
represent the "Wise Virgins" and the "Foolish Virgins" of the
(4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom. These PEOPLE are also presented as the
"Ten Toes" of the Great Tribulation (Dan 2), with the Iron and Clay being
the "Wise" and the "Foolish" Virgins.



The ISSUE that confuses most folks about the passage above is that
one is "taken" and the other is left-behind ON EARTH and that contradicts
most eschatology about the Final Harvest... but most eschatology is wrong.


In fact, that period of time AFTER the Final Harvest is represented in MANY
different passages:


It is shown as the "Season and Time" on earth AFTER the destruction of
Daniel's 4th Beast (Dan 7:11-12).


It is shown as the time AFTER the 2nd Woe is "past"... but BEFORE the
3rd Woe begins at the 7th Trumpet (Rev 11:14)


It is shown as the time AFTER the False Prophet and Beast are "cast alive"
into the "Lake-of-Fire"... but BEFORE Satan and "his land" JOIN THEM
in the same "Lake-of-Fire" (compare Rev 19:20 and 20:10)


It is shown as the time when those who are left-behind BEGIN TO SEE
all the prophets in the Kingdom of God - and themselves "thrust out" (Lk 13:25-28)


And, in the experiences of the "Ten Virgins" it is shown as the time
after the "Wise Virgins" are taken into the "Marriage" and the "Door was Shut"


----------

Mat 25:10 And while they [foolish virgins] went to buy, the bridegroom [Jesus] came; and they that were ready [wise virgins] went in with him to the marriage [5th Eternal Kingdom]: and the door was shut [harvest is done].

------------


The fact is, there are MANY PASSAGES that show the "Season and Time"
on earth AFTER the destruction of Daniel's 4th Beast... these passages were
just never understood before.

.
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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-------------


This is a picture of the Final Harvest.

In this picture you see that there are TWO existing together at "the end",
these TWO represent the PEOPLE living at time of the Final Harvest which
occurs from Daniel's (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom.



However, contrary to traditional eschatology and common opinion,
after the "wheat" are "taken"... the "tares" are left-behind while
the 4th Kingdom (of Babylon) is destroyed. In fact, you see this same picture
in Rev 18:4 as the Lord commands the "wheat" to "Come Out of Her".

Your view needs a lot of work. The weeds are taken first, not the wheat. :wave:
 
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5thKingdom

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Your view needs a lot of work. The weeds are taken first, not the wheat.
-----------------------


Sorry... Revelations 18:4 makes it CLEARY that the Saints are "taken"
out of Babylon BEFORE the "tares" are destroyed.


And Matthew 25:10 CLEARLY shows the "Wise Virgins" are "taken" into
the "Marriage" and the "Door was Shut" BEFORE the "Foolish Virgins"
were destroyed.


The problem (for traditional eschatology) is that the Great Tribulation
is shown from MANY different perspectives and we do not find Truth
with the harmony of only two or three perspectives... before you can
even PRETEND to have Truth you must be able to harmonize ALL the
related passages.



For example: In the Bible the Great Tribulation period is shown from (at least)
Seventeen different perspectives. We cannot PRETEND to have found Truth
when our theory can only harmonize with two-or-three-or-four of the 17.


From the perspective of a SINGLE KINGDOM - the Great Tribulation is shown as:

(1) Daniel's Fourth Beast, (2) the 7-Headed Revelations Beast, (3) Satan's "Little Season",
(4) the Reign of the "Little Horn", (5) the "Ten Virgins" prophecy, (6) the "Ten Kings",
(7) the Kingdom of "Ten Horns" and (8) the "Ten Toes" of iron and clay.


From the perspective of a DUAL KINGDOM - the Great Tribulation is shown as:

(9) Two separate Trumpet Judgments, (10) Two separate and distinct "Woes",
(11) Two separate Beasts - the First Beast, then an "image" of the First Beast and
(12) Locusts that "torment" those in the 4th Kingdom for a period of "five months".


To understand Truth about Daniel's (4th) Great Tribulation we must first be able to harmonize all Scriptures
related to the passages above - because each prophecy represents a different perspective on the Great Tribulation Kingdom.


All these prophecies represent the same people experiencing the same events -just from different perspectives.
When we THINK we understand something about the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom we must TEST
that idea against ALL SCRIPTURE. If we find that we can only harmonize SOME of the passages
... then we KNOW that we have not found Truth.


From the perspective of FOUR PERIODS - the Great Tribulation is shown as:

(13) Four (4) separate "Watches of the Night".
(14) the "days" when Saints "dead bodies shall lie in the street".
(15) the "times" when the Saints are nourished in the "wilderness" and
(16) the "times" when the "Little Horn" rules Daniel's 4th Kingdom and
(17) the "forty and two months" (representing 3.5 "years") when the "Holy City"
is being "tread under foot".


In order to understand the Biblical Truth about Daniel's (4th) Great Tribulation
we must FIRST harmonize all Scriptures related to that Beast - because the Bible
provides several different perspectives of the Kingdom.


It's not significant, and there's no Biblical validation and, therefore,
there is no spiritual "authority" in harmonizing two-or-three passages
out of SEVENTEEN (17) related passages.


Likewise, it's not significant, and there's NO spiritual "authority" to harmonize
only five-or-six-or-seven of the SEVENTEEN (17) related passages BECAUSE
if even ONE PASSAGE contradicts your eschatological "theory"... then if is PROVEN
to be un-Biblical and false.


Most doctrinal error in both Jewish and Christian Eschatology is the result
of not being able to harmonize ALL Scripture. Before we can even begin
to claim Biblical Truth about Great Tribulation prophecies (events) we must
FIRST be able to harmonize at least these seventeen (17) related passages above.


Because, if even ONE PASSAGE of Scripture does not harmonize
... that PROVES we have not found Biblical Truth.

.
 
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5thKingdom

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Your view needs a lot of work. The weeds are taken first, not the wheat



--------

Besides my last post about harmonizing (at least) seventeen (17)
different perspectives of the Great Tribulation BEFORE assuming
that you understand the Truth, it also seems that you read the
language too quickly because the passage says the "tares" are
"gathered together" and "bound in bundles" while the wheat
are "gathered" into the "barn" (Marriage Supper)


In other words, as we see with the "Ten Virgins",
the "Wise Virgins" separate from the "Foolish Virgins"
BEFORE they are "taken" into the "marriage" and
the "Door was Shut".



My gospel harmonizes with ALL Scripture.
I made NO MISTAKE about the Final Harvest occurring
from Daniel's (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom and NOT from
the (3rd) New Testament Kingdom - as was supposed for so long.


You make the mistake of intentionally ignoring Scriptures
that do not "fit" your theory.


I understand that you have written a book... I have also.
That does not matter - because you are demonstrating that you
cannot harmonize your eschatology with the Context of ALL SCRIPTURE.



I do NOT say that to be mean or hateful... it is just a fact demonstrated
by your words.


Mat_13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


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rollinTHUNDER

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-----------------------


Sorry... Revelations 18:4 makes it CLEARY that the Saints are "taken"
out of Babylon BEFORE the "tares" are destroyed.


And Matthew 25:10 CLEARLY shows the "Wise Virgins" are "taken" into
the "Marriage" and the "Door was Shut" BEFORE the "Foolish Virgins"
were destroyed.


The problem (for traditional eschatology) is that the Great Tribulation
is shown from MANY different perspectives and we do not find Truth
with the harmony of only two or three perspectives... before you can
even PRETEND to have Truth you must be able to harmonize ALL the
related passages.



For example: In the Bible the Great Tribulation period is shown from (at least)
Seventeen different perspectives. We cannot PRETEND to have found Truth
when our theory can only harmonize with two-or-three-or-four of the 17.


From the perspective of a SINGLE KINGDOM - the Great Tribulation is shown as:

(1) Daniel's Fourth Beast, (2) the 7-Headed Revelations Beast, (3) Satan's "Little Season",
(4) the Reign of the "Little Horn", (5) the "Ten Virgins" prophecy, (6) the "Ten Kings",
(7) the Kingdom of "Ten Horns" and (8) the "Ten Toes" of iron and clay.


From the perspective of a DUAL KINGDOM - the Great Tribulation is shown as:

(9) Two separate Trumpet Judgments, (10) Two separate and distinct "Woes",
(11) Two separate Beasts - the First Beast, then an "image" of the First Beast and
(12) Locusts that "torment" those in the 4th Kingdom for a period of "five months".


To understand Truth about Daniel's (4th) Great Tribulation we must first be able to harmonize all Scriptures
related to the passages above - because each prophecy represents a different perspective on the Great Tribulation Kingdom.


All these prophecies represent the same people experiencing the same events -just from different perspectives.
When we THINK we understand something about the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom we must TEST
that idea against ALL SCRIPTURE. If we find that we can only harmonize SOME of the passages
... then we KNOW that we have not found Truth.


From the perspective of FOUR PERIODS - the Great Tribulation is shown as:

(13) Four (4) separate "Watches of the Night".
(14) the "days" when Saints "dead bodies shall lie in the street".
(15) the "times" when the Saints are nourished in the "wilderness" and
(16) the "times" when the "Little Horn" rules Daniel's 4th Kingdom and
(17) the "forty and two months" (representing 3.5 "years") when the "Holy City"
is being "tread under foot".


In order to understand the Biblical Truth about Daniel's (4th) Great Tribulation
we must FIRST harmonize all Scriptures related to that Beast - because the Bible
provides several different perspectives of the Kingdom.


It's not significant, and there's no Biblical validation and, therefore,
there is no spiritual "authority" in harmonizing two-or-three passages
out of SEVENTEEN (17) related passages.


Likewise, it's not significant, and there's NO spiritual "authority" to harmonize
only five-or-six-or-seven of the SEVENTEEN (17) related passages BECAUSE
if even ONE PASSAGE contradicts your eschatological "theory"... then if is PROVEN
to be un-Biblical and false.


Most doctrinal error in both Jewish and Christian Eschatology is the result
of not being able to harmonize ALL Scripture. Before we can even begin
to claim Biblical Truth about Great Tribulation prophecies (events) we must
FIRST be able to harmonize at least these seventeen (17) related passages above.


Because, if even ONE PASSAGE of Scripture does not harmonize
... that PROVES we have not found Biblical Truth.

.

Looks like you have a real mess on your hands. Good luck with that. :wave:
 
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5thKingdom

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Looks like you have a real mess on your hands. Good luck with that. :wave:



Friend, I do not expect you to be able to understand the historical
fulfillment of Great Tribulation prophecies...


However, the Biblical FACT is --- I have listed 17 passages
that represent EVENTS occurring during the (4th) Great Tribulation and
your eschatology cannot harmonize more than three-or-four passages.

Now UNDERSTAND it was not ME that wrote those passages... it is the Bible.
For you to NOT try to harmonize your "gospel" with more than a few of the many
different related passages PROVES your "gospel" is false.



In fact, when you intentionally ignore passages that CONTRADICT
your current "gospel" (and there are MANY in the 17 I listed for you)
then you are DEMONSTRATING that you do not submit to the authority
of the Bible but, instead, you seek to make Scripture say what you want.


Of course, you could easily prove me wrong by simply SHOWING how
your theories can harmonize with ALL SCRIPTURES - including the 17
related passages I gave you.... but you will not.


You will not TRY to harmonize your "gospel" with ALL SCRIPTURE because
you know that you cannot....



Instead, you will pretend that intentionally ignoring passages is OK.
What other choice do you have (besides submitting to the Bible)?
You KNOW that your gospel is destroyed with ONE CONTRADICTION
so you will run-away and pretend that all is well.


.
 
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