Matthew 24:40-41

[riverrat]

Correct

Those that favor Israel during the tribulation [the Lord's brethern [kin]] will understand

Not like those of the professing church today who don't get it .... the replacement theologists

You must have the same book that I have

LOL, I do. It is the Bible.

 

[parousia70]

My comment

Ken Gentry is a hyper preterist

Incorrect.
Hyper Preterists don't believe in a Future Coming/Resurrection as Gentry does.

 

[Straightshot]

Anyone who pushes most of the unfulfilled prophecies back into 70 AD and then tries to explain away any valid and future prophecy by committing it to allegory is "hyper" in my opinion .... Gentry does this and then tacks on the second coming of Christ at the end

Many biblical truths are buried in metaphorical smog by Gentry .... he plays a sly game by holding to his dogma and throws out a crumb of truth which some how justifies his many other abuses of the Lord's more sure word of prophecy .... way more than enough to disqualify him as a legitimate bible teacher

.... a lacking token of truth with a truck load of error

Maybe this will help you understand .... Gentry is not one to follow for many reasons

Here is short and concise analysis exposing Gentry, Demar, Sproul, an Hanegraaff

Preterism consists of "full" and "partial" Preterists. Partial Preterists actually consider much of what "full" Preterists teach to be heretical. Full Preterists insist that "Jesus" returned "in spirit" in 70 AD and nothing is future. "We're in "the New Heavens and New Earth" right now and satan is bound!

But to both full and partial Preterists, hardly anything is taken literally; most all is allegorical or symbolic, particularly the Book of Revelation. To all Preterists, the Olivet Discourse is not about the coming of Messiah, but about the destruction of Jerusalem. Revelation was not written in 95 AD but much earlier according to full and partial Preterists....

Partial Preterists do believe in a Second Coming and the resurrection of believers (but not in the Rapture), along with a "Judgment Seat of Christ." They do not believe in a literal Millennium, Battle of Armageddon, literal antichrist, or a role for national Israel. Prominent partial Preterists include Gary DeMar, R.C. Sproul, Ken Gentry, and "The Bible Answerman", Hank Hanegraaff.

Preterism became prominent thanks to a Jesuit priest, Luis de Alcazar, who sought to defend the Catholic Church against attacks of the Reformers. He sought to defend the Roman Church from claims about Catholic apostasy. The Preterism taught today, however, only became popular in the late 20th Century.

Some Preterist teachings include the following:

Nero was the antichrist and the False Prophet was the leadership of apostate Israel who rejected Messiah and worshipped instead the Roman Empire (who tormented them then slaughtered them). Nero's persecutions were limited to Rome, not the whole world.

Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation are all fulfilled. The destruction of Jerusalem was the Great Tribulation along with the persecution of believers. (Makes one wonder how they justify Matthew 24:21 which states that the period with Israel will be the worst time in all of history? Many scenarios since 70 AD have been far worse than the destruction of 70 AD, including World War I & II, and the Jewish Holocaust. And all nations round about against Jerusalem in 70 AD...only Rome. All nations coming against her are to be destroyed [Zechariah 12]

Everything is taken symbolically including the Millennium. They believe we are now in the "Kingdom of Christ" and have been since the days of the early church. Satan is bound, they say....never mind that the earth is reeling with sorrow, pain, disasters, and godless governments under Communism and radical Islam. More than 50 million believers have died since 70 AD and there have been 15,000 wars - so how can this possibly be the kingdom of Christ on the earth?

Since, according to Preterists, "Jesus" isn't coming back, one has to ask: What about scriptures such as Acts 1:11, "And they said to them, Galilean men, why are you standing and staring into heaven? This Y'shua who was taken up from you to heaven, likewise he will come just as you have seen him who ascended into heaven. This should be a challenge to the "full Preterists" who believe He came back "in spirit" in 70 AD and that's it for His return! Also, the Jews as a nation did not turn to Messiah in 70 AD as prophesied in Zechariah 12:10....

Also, if all these events took place in 70 AD, one must ask: When were the nations judged as described in Matthew 25:31-46? They weren't judged back then because this is a future event

As for Nero - he couldn't have been the antichrist, as he died in 68 AD before the destruction of Jerusalem. He was a whimpy emperor though evil, indeed, but he doesn't come close to being the "King of fierce countenance" of Daniel 8:23; 9:26; 27. This one will be destroyed by Jesus Christ, but Nero committed suicide.

Before that, he issued no "mark" and people could buy and sell. He sat in no Temple declaring himself God, demanding that he be worshiped [2 Thessalonians 2:8-12. All Preterists also deny there will be future millennial temple of the Lord's on the earth [Ezekiel 40]

The vials, bowls, seals, and trumpet judgments of Revelation are all symbolic to all Preterists. Thus the carnage and the Lord's victory of Revelation is overlooked and written off.

How can people with this theology accept that all of the prophecies of the Lord's first coming were fulfilled literally but Second Coming verses must be symbolic? Are we permitted to pick and choose like this and remain with any hermeneutical credibility and accuracy?

Folks, Revelation was written in about 95 AD and not before 70 AD. It's therefore obvious that Preterism is just another teaching that is filled with doctrinal error and should not be taken seriously. It takes our eyes off of our "blessed hope" - the glorious return of Jesus who was who will take believers out of our world of pain and sorrow. Satan has definitely not been bound yet, but he will be and we can be sure of the day when the King of kings will inaugurate the greatest Kingdom the world has even known!

 

[parousia70]

When will His detractors quit attempting to "commit to allegory" the scriptures that they find challenge their own hyper futurist view?

I'l keep introducing pot to kettle in hopes they one day become acquainted.

 

[Straightshot]

Good luck !!!

 

[jduck1986]

scripture clearly shows that at the second coming the lost and wicked will be resurrected. John 11:24. John 6:39. John 6:44 John 6:54 John 6:40 John 5:29

 

[Job8]

scripture clearly shows that at the second coming the lost and wicked will be resurrected. John 11:24. John 6:39. John 6:44 John 6:54 John 6:40 John 5:29

As long as we are clear that the resurrection of the damned is not at the same time as the resurrection of the saved. It only appears that way in the Gospel of John.

 

[miamited]

scripture clearly shows that at the second coming the lost and wicked will be resurrected. John 11:24. John 6:39. John 6:44 John 6:54 John 6:40 John 5:29

Hi jd,

Actually none of these verses speak of the lost. All of these are references to the resurrection of the righteous.

Martha believes that Lazarus will be raised up in the resurrection of the righteous because she knows that Lazarus believed Jesus.

The others speak of 'raising up' those who do partake in drinking his blood and eating his flesh (righteous). That he shall lose none of his and raise them up at the last day (righteous). He will raise up those drawn by the Father (righteous). Everyone who looks to the Son will be raised up (righteous).

Yes, John's gospel teaches that the righteous will be raised up by Jesus at the last day. There is no mention in any of these passages about the unrighteous and when they might be raised up.

The Revelation seems to clearly explain that there will be at least two resurrections.

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Straightshot]

"That he shall lose none of his and raise them up at the last day"


Correct

"at" or "in" the last day .... and never stated "on" the last day in any scripture

All usage of this declaration never tells "on" the last day as the post tribulation thinker likes to use

"At" or "in" the last day signifies a period of time ..... the "Day of the Lord" in which He will do many things .... not on just one 24 hour day

The resurrection to eternal life occurs more than once, and at different times

The Lord's own resurrection, His true ecclesia at His coming just before He brings His unprecedented judgment upon the earth [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4] [those on thrones .... symbol of the Lord government], His two prophets at the end of the second 1260 days of the tribulation period [Revelation 11:11-12], and then those killed for their faith during the tribulation period [Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13; 15:2-3; 20:4] [those beheaded]

And finally the resurrection to the second death is found here [Revelation 20:11-15] .... only one of these consisting of all of the spirits of the unbelieving human dead from the beginning of human creation who will not be found in the Lord's book of life[Revelation 20:11-15]

 

[jduck1986]

John 5:29
and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Pretty clear as day.

 

[riverrat]

"That he shall lose none of his and raise them up at the last day"


Correct

"at" or "in" the last day .... and never stated "on" the last day in any scripture

All usage of this declaration never tells "on" the last day as the post tribulation thinker likes to use

"At" or "in" the last day signifies a period of time ..... the "Day of the Lord" in which He will do many things .... not on just one 24 hour day

The resurrection to eternal life occurs more than once, and at different times

The Lord's own resurrection, His true ecclesia at His coming just before He brings His unprecedented judgment upon the earth [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4] [those on thrones .... symbol of the Lord government], His two prophets at the end of the second 1260 days of the tribulation period [Revelation 11:11-12], and then those killed for their faith during the tribulation period [Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13; 15:2-3; 20:4] [those beheaded]

And finally the resurrection to the second death is found here [Revelation 20:11-15] .... only one of these consisting of all of the spirits of the unbelieving human dead from the beginning of human creation who will not be found in the Lord's book of life[Revelation 20:11-15]

What about the resurrection of the saints of Mt. 27:51-53?

 

[Straightshot]

I believe this event was a token resurrection related to the Lord's experience for demonstration to the on lookers of the day and that those involved later returned to their state of sleeping in death ... much like that of Lasuras

They all still wait for the Lord's call to immortalize them, and event still pending

We are told that no man has gone to "heaven" [has been made immortal] except the One who has come down from heaven .... Jesus Christ [John 3:13]

All of the balance of His true ecclesia are still waiting at this time [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58]

 

[iamlamad]

Anyone who pushes most of the unfulfilled prophecies back into 70 AD and then tries to explain away any valid and future prophecy by committing it to allegory is "hyper" in my opinion .... Gentry does this and then tacks on the second coming of Christ at the end

Many biblical truths are buried in metaphorical smog by Gentry .... he plays a sly game by holding to his dogma and throws out a crumb of truth which some how justifies his many other abuses of the Lord's more sure word of prophecy .... way more than enough to disqualify him as a legitimate bible teacher

.... a lacking token of truth with a truck load of error

Maybe this will help you understand .... Gentry is not one to follow for many reasons

Here is short and concise analysis exposing Gentry, Demar, Sproul, an Hanegraaff

Preterism consists of "full" and "partial" Preterists. Partial Preterists actually consider much of what "full" Preterists teach to be heretical. Full Preterists insist that "Jesus" returned "in spirit" in 70 AD and nothing is future. "We're in "the New Heavens and New Earth" right now and satan is bound!

But to both full and partial Preterists, hardly anything is taken literally; most all is allegorical or symbolic, particularly the Book of Revelation. To all Preterists, the Olivet Discourse is not about the coming of Messiah, but about the destruction of Jerusalem. Revelation was not written in 95 AD but much earlier according to full and partial Preterists....

Partial Preterists do believe in a Second Coming and the resurrection of believers (but not in the Rapture), along with a "Judgment Seat of Christ." They do not believe in a literal Millennium, Battle of Armageddon, literal antichrist, or a role for national Israel. Prominent partial Preterists include Gary DeMar, R.C. Sproul, Ken Gentry, and "The Bible Answerman", Hank Hanegraaff.

Preterism became prominent thanks to a Jesuit priest, Luis de Alcazar, who sought to defend the Catholic Church against attacks of the Reformers. He sought to defend the Roman Church from claims about Catholic apostasy. The Preterism taught today, however, only became popular in the late 20th Century.

Some Preterist teachings include the following:

Nero was the antichrist and the False Prophet was the leadership of apostate Israel who rejected Messiah and worshipped instead the Roman Empire (who tormented them then slaughtered them). Nero's persecutions were limited to Rome, not the whole world.

Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation are all fulfilled. The destruction of Jerusalem was the Great Tribulation along with the persecution of believers. (Makes one wonder how they justify Matthew 24:21 which states that the period with Israel will be the worst time in all of history? Many scenarios since 70 AD have been far worse than the destruction of 70 AD, including World War I & II, and the Jewish Holocaust. And all nations round about against Jerusalem in 70 AD...only Rome. All nations coming against her are to be destroyed [Zechariah 12]

Everything is taken symbolically including the Millennium. They believe we are now in the "Kingdom of Christ" and have been since the days of the early church. Satan is bound, they say....never mind that the earth is reeling with sorrow, pain, disasters, and godless governments under Communism and radical Islam. More than 50 million believers have died since 70 AD and there have been 15,000 wars - so how can this possibly be the kingdom of Christ on the earth?

Since, according to Preterists, "Jesus" isn't coming back, one has to ask: What about scriptures such as Acts 1:11, "And they said to them, Galilean men, why are you standing and staring into heaven? This Y'shua who was taken up from you to heaven, likewise he will come just as you have seen him who ascended into heaven. This should be a challenge to the "full Preterists" who believe He came back "in spirit" in 70 AD and that's it for His return! Also, the Jews as a nation did not turn to Messiah in 70 AD as prophesied in Zechariah 12:10....

Also, if all these events took place in 70 AD, one must ask: When were the nations judged as described in Matthew 25:31-46? They weren't judged back then because this is a future event

As for Nero - he couldn't have been the antichrist, as he died in 68 AD before the destruction of Jerusalem. He was a whimpy emperor though evil, indeed, but he doesn't come close to being the "King of fierce countenance" of Daniel 8:23; 9:26; 27. This one will be destroyed by Jesus Christ, but Nero committed suicide.

Before that, he issued no "mark" and people could buy and sell. He sat in no Temple declaring himself God, demanding that he be worshiped [2 Thessalonians 2:8-12. All Preterists also deny there will be future millennial temple of the Lord's on the earth [Ezekiel 40]

The vials, bowls, seals, and trumpet judgments of Revelation are all symbolic to all Preterists. Thus the carnage and the Lord's victory of Revelation is overlooked and written off.

How can people with this theology accept that all of the prophecies of the Lord's first coming were fulfilled literally but Second Coming verses must be symbolic? Are we permitted to pick and choose like this and remain with any hermeneutical credibility and accuracy?

Folks, Revelation was written in about 95 AD and not before 70 AD. It's therefore obvious that Preterism is just another teaching that is filled with doctrinal error and should not be taken seriously. It takes our eyes off of our "blessed hope" - the glorious return of Jesus who was who will take believers out of our world of pain and sorrow. Satan has definitely not been bound yet, but he will be and we can be sure of the day when the King of kings will inaugurate the greatest Kingdom the world has even known!

We can summarize most of this post by saying that Preterism is HOGWASH, and false doctrine.

Good Job, Straightshot: good shooting!

 

[iamlamad]

I believe this event was a token resurrection related to the Lord's experience for demonstration to the on lookers of the day and that those involved later returned to their state of sleeping in death ... much like that of Lasuras

They all still wait for the Lord's call to immortalize them, and event still pending

We are told that no man has gone to "heaven" [has been made immortal] except the One who has come down from heaven .... Jesus Christ [John 3:13]

All of the balance of His true ecclesia are still waiting at this time [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58]

I have often pondered what Jesus said, that no one has (up to that point in time) ascended up to heaven.

What about Enoch? What about Elijah? And what about those who were resurrected when Jesus rose? I don't think they stayed around for any length of time, else much more would have been written. I suspect God just took some of the elders to heaven early.

Considering Enoch and Elijah, perhaps what Jesus had in mind was someone ascending to heaven under their own power. Is there a difference between being snatched and escorted up and ascending? I think there is.

For a while I though those who rose with Jesus were the 24 elders John saw in the throne room. I just can't get the timing to fit. When John looked into the throne room (Rev. 4) Jesus had not yet ascended. Perhaps He had not yet risen. Perhaps he had risen but not yet been found worthy to break the seals. That would give those who rose with Him time to get to heaven and be seen in the throne room when John looked and saw the Father, the 4 beasts and the 24 elders.

 

[riverrat]

I have often pondered what Jesus said, that no one has (up to that point in time) ascended up to heaven.

What about Enoch? What about Elijah? And what about those who were resurrected when Jesus rose? I don't think they stayed around for any length of time, else much more would have been written. I suspect God just took some of the elders to heaven early.

Considering Enoch and Elijah, perhaps what Jesus had in mind was someone ascending to heaven under their own power. Is there a difference between being snatched and escorted up and ascending? I think there is.

For a while I though those who rose with Jesus were the 24 elders John saw in the throne room. I just can't get the timing to fit. When John looked into the throne room (Rev. 4) Jesus had not yet ascended. Perhaps He had not yet risen. Perhaps he had risen but not yet been found worthy to break the seals. That would give those who rose with Him time to get to heaven and be seen in the throne room when John looked and saw the Father, the 4 beasts and the 24 elders.

Correct me if I am wrong but Enoch and Elijah did not die and their bodies resurrected as Jesus was. Jesus was the first to actually die and then be resurrected. The saints in Jerusalem that I refer to above were resurrected after Jesus was resurrected.

 

[Straightshot]

Neither were made immortal and both Enoch and Elijah did die and so did those who were resurrected in the first century

Elijah was transported supernaturally on the earth to different locations during His service, but was not made immortal

Enoch was a preacher and the earth was filled with violence, but he did not die as a result his enemies seeking to kill him, or by the Lord's judgment of the flood ..... the Lord took him in death before

The 24 elders and the great multitude are still awaiting the Lord's call to immortality as are all of His true ecclesia from the beginning of human creation

No man has gone to heaven [the state of immortality] except the One who has come down from heaven .... there are no contradictory exceptions

 

[iamlamad]

Correct me if I am wrong but Enoch and Elijah did not die and their bodies resurrected as Jesus was. Jesus was the first to actually die and then be resurrected. The saints in Jerusalem that I refer to above were resurrected after Jesus was resurrected.

Right. But I was referring to what Jesus said about no one has ascended up to heaven.

 

[iamlamad]

Neither were made immortal and both Enoch and Elijah did die and so did those who were resurrected in the first century

Elijah was transported supernaturally on the earth to different locations during His service, but was not made immortal

Enoch was a preacher and the earth was filled with violence, but he did not die as a result his enemies seeking to kill him, or by the Lord's judgment of the flood ..... the Lord took him in death before

The 24 elders and the great multitude are still awaiting the Lord's call to immortality as are all of His true ecclesia from the beginning of human creation

No man has gone to heaven [the state of immortality] except the One who has come down from heaven .... there are no contradictory exceptions

It is generally thought throughout the church world that Enoch did not die, but was just taken to heaven. My guess is he was given a resurrection body, like ours will be. The bible certainly does not give the idea that the Lord killed him!

Did Jesus get a resurrection body, or not? The bible tells us he did. So there is no reason why those who rose with Him did not also get resurrection bodies.

No immortality? All those who have died in faith to God are in heaven now, just not in their resurrection body. So there are untold millions in heaven now. However, most of them have not yet received their resurrection body.

In fact, when Jesus said this, HE had not yet ascended. Was He then prophesying?

 

[iamlamad]

Barne's notes:
Verse 13. And no man hath ascended into heaven. No man, therefore, is qualified to speak of heavenly things, John 3:12. To speak of those things requires intimate acquaintance with them--demands that we have seen them; and as no one has ascended into heaven and returned, so no one is qualified to speak of them but He who came down from heaven. This does not mean that no one had gone to heaven or had been saved, for Enoch and Elijah had been borne there (Genesis 5:24; comp. Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11), and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and others were there; but it means that no one had ascended and returned, so as to be qualified to speak of the things there.

John Gill

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]John 3:13[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] And no man hath ascended into heaven…
Though Enoch and Elias had, yet not by their own power, nor in the sense our Lord designs; whose meaning is, that no man had, or could go up to heaven, to bring from thence the knowledge of divine and heavenly things; in which sense the phrase is used in (Deuteronomy 30:12) (Romans 10:6) , and which may be illustrated by (John 1:18) ; wherefore inasmuch as Nicodemus had acknowledged Christ to he a teacher come from God, our Lord, would have him know, that he was the only teacher of heavenly things, as being the only person that had been in heaven, and in the bosom of the Father; and therefore, if he, and the rest of the Jews, did not receive instructions from him, they must for ever remain ignorant; for there never had been, nor was, nor could be, any mere man that could go up to heaven, and learn the mysteries of God, and of the kingdom of heaven, and return and instruct men in them:
[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Guzik:[/FONT]

d. No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven: Jesus "makes it clear that He can speak authoritatively about things in heaven, though no one else can." (Morris)


There is certainly not much consensus on this verse. IN CONTEXT He had just told
Nicodemus of heavenly things and of being born again, and Nicodemus seemed to struggle with his lesson. It seems Jesus was telling him that ONLY JESUS who came from heaven was qualifed to teach about heaven.

 

[Straightshot]

"The bible certainly does not give the idea that the Lord killed him!"


Enoch died a natural death and the Lord received His spirit .... just like any other human

The human spirit returns to the Lord who makes it

And there are none of the Lord's ecclesia already in "heaven" and in the state of immortality .... all of the dead in Christ are still waiting for His call

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 attest to this fact .... all of the dead are "sleeping" no time passing for them .... they are not aware of it [Ecclesiastes 9:5]

And they will all awake at the Lord's call [1 Thessalonians 4:13-18] and will be caught up along with the living at the time

The thief on the cross is still waiting, but the next thing that he will be aware of after his death is the Lord's call to wake him ..... no time passing for him

No man has gone to heaven [made immortal with an immortal body] except the One who has come down from heaven

There are no contradictions in scripture and the human out of the physical body does not experience time passing like it does when one is in the physical body