Matt Crouch

[jrlinz]

In the thinking of the Jews of that time (OT and NT) it meant Material wealth, health, family, friends, a total, inseperable package (in my understanding).

 

[s0journ3r]

What car would you recommend that I should be driving/owning, when I meet with bankers, financiers, and investors on the golf course who are about to fork over a sum with many zeroes?

Last week I met one of them in their MB S65, which interestingly costs Cdn $241,000.

You should buy you a car that you feel is capable of serving your needs. You shouldn't buy a car merely to impress people. While I may not know your motives in buying a $100,000 automobile...God does. However, the comments I made were in the context of Matthew Crouch professing to be a Christian in a public spotlight who has at least 4 vehicles (the L.A. times article says eight, but let's say 4) yet purchasing another one for a very high price - when the funds used to make those purchases may come from sincere Christian people who send in their offerings with the intentions that their hard-earned dollar is going to go to the spread of the gospel. I think anyone who knows what the Bible says about being haugty with riches will see a problem with this type of lifestyle.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

 

[Andry]

You should buy you a car that you feel is capable of serving your needs. You shouldn't buy a car merely to impress people. While I may not know your motives in buying a $100,000 automobile...God does. However, the comments I made were in the context of Matthew Crouch professing to be a Christian in a public spotlight who has at least 4 vehicles (the L.A. times article says eight, but let's say 4) yet purchasing another one for a very high price - when the funds used to make those purchases may come from sincere Christian people who send in their offerings with the intentions that their hard-earned dollar is going to go to the spread of the gospel. I think anyone who knows what the Bible says about being haugty with riches will see a problem with this type of lifestyle.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

I respect your post, but you're backtracking now, as you stated, "Is there any reason for a Christian....". But I'll accept your clarification that it's in context of Mr. Crouch.

I don't buy cars to impress people, but in my particular case I couldn't do my job as best I could if drove up in a sensible Accord, and I'm not knocking the Accord.

 

[Ringo84]

I want to be rich. Every single person in the Bible was rich, including Jesus, so it's a part of the package called salvation. But, we have to share; we cant' be selfish or we'll never be rich. I want a GT Mustang, but it cost 30,000 not 240, 0000 and I can prolly find one on sale for 25,000. I believe in getting good deals.

BULL. Jesus was a poor carpenter who had nothing but the clothes on his back and the sandals on his feet. When he went from town to town preaching, he didn't do it for fame or money - like the TBN people - but because he truly wanted to save people. I resent any attempts to make Jesus look like some kind of rich man so that they can justify their mile-wide and inch-deep theology.

Being rich has nothing to do with salvation. At least it shouldn't. There's nothing wrong with being rich, of course, but Christianity's focus isn't to fill one's coffers - it's to have a personal relationship with God!
Ringo

 

[jrlinz]

Thanks for your advice, sorjourner. I will keep that in mind when I buy my next pickup truck. But, God will give us the desires of our heart, if we delight ourselfes in Him. I am sure you have your own interpretation of that scripture. that's cool,as long as it doesn't limit my God. Or His purpose.

 

[Andry]

In the thinking of the Jews of that time (OT and NT) it meant Material wealth, health, family, friends, a total, inseperable package (in my understanding).

Agreed.

But for what purpose? To hoard it, or to let it simply flow from our hands to plant a garden in the barreness of the earth?

 

[jrlinz]

Agreed.

But for what purpose? To hoard it, or to let it simply flow from our hands to plant a garden in the barreness of the earth?

Let it flow, definately. But, God wants good things for His children. It lifts Him up by showing that He is the God of more than enough. It works much as a healing of a deadly, incurable disease, lifts Him up as a healing God.

 

[s0journ3r]

I respect your post, but you're backtracking now, as you stated, "Is there any reason for a Christian....". But I'll accept your clarification that it's in context of Mr. Crouch.

I'm not backtracking. It wasn't my intention. Any Christian, who believes what the Bible says about being haughty in riches, wouldn't seek to justify owning more than four vehicles & persuing another purchase at the price of over $100,000. I personally don't care if you can afford it or not. The Bible says not to be haughty. One can do a lot more for the kingdom by using their riches to help others in need, rather than spending it on themselves to buy needless luxurious items...especially if one is a minister of the Gospel who receives a large sum of his finances from Christians.

I don't buy cars to impress people, but in my particular case I couldn't do my job as best I could if drove up in a sensible Accord, and I'm not knocking the Accord.

I don't know what you do for a living, but your business should be able to speak on its own merits. And you shouldn't have to dish out large sums of your money to buy a vehicle merely to sign up some new wealthy figure. That's my conviction, anyway. I wouldn't want to work in that type of environment.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

 

[Ringo84]

Let me define exactly what problem I have with TBN doctrine, as I'll probably be asked in the future.

We've discussed at length how being rich isn't necessarily bad - it's when someone gets greedy. That's one of the problems with the Crouchs - everything is about money! They define prosperity and even salvation almost completely in terms of money, as though it's the end-all and be-all of prospering. I may be "only" twenty-two years old, but I know that isn't true. A person may not have more than a few dimes to rub together, but they're still prospering because they have a loving family, a good job, a nice house, and plenty of good friends. Money is only one part of prosperity.

The TBN people are obsessed with money, and it shows in their lifestyles. Despite having paid off all the debts incurred by their station (which is admirable), they're still begging for money, as though if some grandmother in Ottumwa, Iowa doesn't donate her grocery money to TBN, their station will absolutely collapse! In truth, however, they have more money than they'll ever need. They use it, apparently, to pay for those huge cars, fleets of mansions, and expensive dinners.

And to who, exactly, would that grandmother in Ottumwa be giving her money? Not God; what would the omnipotent, omnipresent creator of the universe need with our money? She'd be giving it to TBN. I'm not yet so cynical to say that all that money would be for their own use. But if all their debts have been paid, why do they constantly need their viewers to donate? Of course there are always expenses and fees that come from running such a large organization, but surely the Crouchs' vast fortunes would be enough to cover it. There seems to be a logic disconnect there.

Having lots of money doesn't necessarily make you a Christian. You could be the richest person in the world and absolutely rotten inside. You could also be the poorest of the poor and have more faith in one pinky than most moneyed people! People who try to tell you that money equates godliness or salvation have an ulterior motive, methinks.

So not only are they using this theology dishonestly, but the theology itself is, in my opinion, not that great either. It's like God's a cosmic ATM machine or lottery - 'Donate money to us. The more you donate, the more you may win if you are one of the lucky people chosen for a blessing!' If the Publisher's Clearing House told you to donate money to win money, do you think that people would really fall for it? Not likely.

The truth is, God does bless the faithful. Sometimes, He blesses them with a good family. Sometimes, with a loving marriage. Sometimes, even with money. But we shouldn't tithe simply because we think we can earn a couple of bucks - and God's favor - for it. We're blessed because we trust God, live godly lives and help the poor - not because we donate $300 to a ministry.

There's nothing in this theology about helping the poor and unfortunate. It seems to mostly be about helping yourself, as opposed to helping the unfortunate. Jesus was very clear about how we should use our money to help the poor instead of obtaining more "things". As the old cliche goes, after all: you can't take it with you.

Christianity has nothing to do with money. Jesus' short time on earth certainly had nothing to do with money either. It's about asking for and receiving forgiveness for sin, and having a personal relationship with God.

This, all combined, is why I have a problem with WOF doctrine. It's not just a knee-jerk reaction against rich Christians or envy - it's legitimate concerns with a questionable doctrine.
Ringo

 

[jrlinz]

I, for one agree with most of what you have said. Not so sure your estimation of the crouches is entirely accurate, but I admit I could be wrong. How much money does the TBN ministry actually have horded away? Have they released that info?

 

[Alpine]

Okay, I count you out for getting any money at all. Lord, don't give him any money cos he said to count him out! Thanks. *grins innocently*

Yeah ok. I was saying in not so many words that if defrauding the flock is part of the gospel count me out.

And I stand by that.

 

[Alpine]

Okay, I count you out for getting any money at all. Lord, don't give him any money cos he said to count him out! Thanks. *grins innocently*

LOL, that is true!! I mean..come on..there is no proof...apparently. and the 6 million + Jews that died?? RAPTURE! those bones in the mass graves are just plastic....fake..ya know??!!!

So, the news media could be trusted when it came to reporting the holocaust? Or the moon landing?

Why would you not believe the media when report after report has something negative to say about TBN's financial dealings? What do you think of the pay off to a Paul Crouch assistant in the hundred's of thousands of dollars to hush up about a supposed homosexual affair? It actually did happen. It's not just a rumour. It's the exact same thing that brought Jim Bakers empire down. This little story has quietly been brewing for awhile amongst all the other dirty ones that are floating out there. At some point, things will come to a head and it will involve either the IRS or some other agency.

 

[jrlinz]

So, the news media could be trusted when it came to reporting the halocaust? Or the moon landing?

Why would you not believe the media when report after report has something negative to say about TBN's financial dealings? What do you think of the pay off to a Paul Crouch assistant in the hundred's of thousands of dollars to hush up about a supposed homosexual affair? It actually did happen. It's not just a rumour. It's the exact same thing that brought Jim Bakers empire down. This little story has quietly been brewing for awhile amongst all the other dirty ones that are floating out there. At some point, things will come to a head and it will involve either the IRS or some other agency.

I have met a pretty good number of tattooed jews from the concntration camps. Did the media produce them, and send them out to live 'at large' in the populace, as a propaganda stunt to back their claims of Holocaust?

 

[Alpine]

I have met a pretty good number of tattooed jews from the concntration camps. Did the media produce them, and send them out to live 'at large' in the populace, as a propaganda stunt to back their claims of Holocaust?

I lost family members in the holocaust. It was obviously not a fabrication.

There have been numerous reports on shady dealings at TBN, many ex-employee's who have a story to tell, and have told those stories. Does it matter if any of us bothers to post the links again and again? It will be dismissed as either a heresy hunt or we will be called faithless, and wanting to be poor as many of you are doing now.

The point is the poster refuses to believe anything in the national media concerning TBN, because it is unchristian and untruthful. Or so she believes. How can I reason with someone like that?

 

[jrlinz]

I have never seen a single report or link that I consider 'damning' to the Crouches. They behave much differently than I would in their shoes, but they are not me. Accusations are a dime a dozen. It is pretty much as plain as the nose on my face to me that there IS an anti-christian campaign being waged in the media. They use very few 'true' facts, and a lot of half-truths and bald-faced lies. I HAVE to take that into account, when I hear something.

 

[Tatu]

Sojourner,

You think it's against the Bible to have more than you need, in the car department?

God gave me the car I have, literally. And it's very very nice. MUCH more than I need, and much nicer than most people's cars. So much so that for a long time I felt really conflicted about all the attention it gets me. That was before I realized all I had to do was walk in God's glory and give him all the credit.

Do you have a problem with that?

Tough

My next car will be nicer!!!

And one day, I know I will be driving a brand new Bentley Continental GT Coupe. Spare your negative comments. I won't be reading them!

 

[s0journ3r]

Sojourner,

You think it's against the Bible to have more than you need, in the car department?

What does the Bible say about being haughty in riches? Can you define "haughty in riches" for us if it doesn't mean 8 cars & a Bently on the way? Would it be 9 cars? 20? 45 cars & a [SIZE=-1]Citation X? I mean, please...set us straight. [/SIZE]

I get it. You're broke, right?

*sighs*

Unreal.

God gave me the car I have, literally. And it's very very nice. MUCH more than I need, and much nicer than most people's cars.

Do you have a problem with that?

Tough

Because my next car will be even nicer. :-D

Okay, why did you post this towards me? I am not interested in your pointless rants.

If you don't have anything to say that will contribute to the discussion & all you have are insulting remarks...please, keep them to yourself.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

I lost family members in the holocaust. It was obviously not a fabrication.

There have been numerous reports on shady dealings at TBN, many ex-employee's who have a story to tell, and have told those stories. Does it matter if any of us bothers to post the links again and again? It will be dismissed as either a heresy hunt or we will be called faithless, and wanting to be poor as many of you are doing now.

The point is the poster refuses to believe anything in the national media concerning TBN, because it is unchristian and untruthful. Or so she believes. How can I reason with someone like that?

AGAIN!!!!!!!!!! CAN YOU GIVE ME PROOF OF THIS????????you keep throwing around these accusations with NO NO NO proof! Either put up or shut up! I have had enough of you dancing around the proof! You are slandering with NO proof of ANYTHING...so once again..put up or shut up!

 

[Ringo84]

AGAIN!!!!!!!!!! CAN YOU GIVE ME PROOF OF THIS????????you keep throwing around these accusations with NO NO NO proof! Either put up or shut up! I have had enough of you dancing around the proof! You are slandering with NO proof of ANYTHING...so once again..put up or shut up!

Here's a link to an article about Paul Crouch's alleged homosexual tryst, since you wanted some proof:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/septemberweb-only/9-13-11.0.html

HERE'S the link I was talking about above! It's from the Trinity Foundation - a CHRISTIAN organization (for those who think that criticism of TBN is "anti-Christian bias") that provides some eye-opening articles about TBN. Scroll until you see the header "Paul Crouch and TBN".

http://www.trinityfi.org/

I wouldn't spend so much time defending these h*retics. People that so blatantly twist the Bible the way the Crouchs do don't deserve the time or effort.

Of course, allegations don't amount to truth. We all know that. It's important, however, to know exactly how these people operate.
Ringo

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Here's a link to an article about Paul Crouch's alleged homosexual tryst, since you wanted some proof:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/septemberweb-only/9-13-11.0.html

HERE'S the link I was talking about above! It's from the Trinity Foundation - a CHRISTIAN organization (for those who think that criticism of TBN is "anti-Christian bias") that provides some eye-opening articles about TBN. Scroll until you see the header "Paul Crouch and TBN".

http://www.trinityfi.org/

I wouldn't spend so much time defending these h*retics. People that so blatantly twist the Bible the way the Crouchs do don't deserve the time or effort.

Of course, allegations don't amount to truth. We all know that. It's important, however, to know exactly how these people operate.
Ringo

Did you read the word 'alleged'??? I can 'allege' something against you..would that make it true?? NO! Am I sticking up for him..no..cause only God and Paul know for sure what happened. I wouldn't be so quick to call them heretics either...this COULD be turned around on you someday by someone for something YOU did. MERCY triumphs over judgement.