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I trusting in the flesh? I trust solely on the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, dealing with the sin of the world for my salvation, you?You still trusting in the flesh for salvation, dung salvation. His People in Matt 1:21 is the Church, the Body of Christ who He is the Head of, they are all One.
You are saying the promise of salvation from sin to the people in Matt 1:21 is restricted to the ethnic jews. So you said its promised to them based upon their flesh, i assume their physical , natural relationship to Abraham.I trusting in the flesh? I trust solely on the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, dealing with the sin of the world for my salvation, you?
I trust solely on the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, dealing with the sin of the world for my salvation, you?
Whoever wishes to be part of Jesus' people.Well whose sins are being talked about in Matt 1:21 ? Whose sins are going to be dealt with according to that scripture ?
Sorry thats not what that scripture says.Whoever wishes to be part of Jesus' people.
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.Titus 2:14
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people zealous of good works.
The word peculiar is:
perioúsios (from 4012 /perí, "all-around, encompassing" and 1511 /eínai, "being, to exist") – properly, what exists in abundance (plenteousness) and hence of surpassing value. This describes believers because they belong to the Lord as His prized treasure ("peculiar," special possession). 4041 (perioúsios) is used only in Tit 2:14.
So those Christ redeems are His People Matt 1:21. Race / Ethnicity has no place here, His People of all races/ethnicities He has redeemed by His Blood Rev 5:9
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 6
That's quite a strong accusation you hold against many (if not the majority of ?) Christian scholars.You are saying the promise of salvation from sin to the people in Matt 1:21 is restricted to the ethnic jews. So you said its promised to them based upon their flesh, i assume their physical , natural relationship to Abraham.
If thats your belief, yes you condition salvation on the flesh, at least in this case you do, which is very revealing.
Whose sins will be dealt with? Rather it says whom (what people) the Messiah has come for to deliver from sins.@zoidar
Well whose sins are being talked about in Matt 1:21 ? Whose sins are going to be dealt with according to that scripture ?
You still trust in the flesh for salvation, as long as you restrict His People in Matt 1:21 to ethnic jews.For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
— Titus 2:11-14
V. 11 says: "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men" (I guess you are saying by quoting Rev 5:9 "all men" would be referring to all kinds of men, where I of course disagree). I believe Christ gave himself for whoever believes (John 3:16), and as Titus 2:14 says, to redeem us (believers) from every lawless deed ... zealous for good deeds. Christ didn't give himself to redeem unbelievers from lawless deeds, but believers, for them to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age.
That's quite a strong accusation you hold against many (if not the majority of ?) Christian scholars.
Whose sins will be dealt with? Rather it says whom (what people) the Messiah has come for to deliver from sins.
You keep saying it. I still don't understand why.You still trust in the flesh for salvation, as long as you restrict His People in Matt 1:21 to ethnic jews.
Yes Jesus was first sent to the jews, I never said nothing against that. I said you are trusting in the flesh since you say " His People" in Matt 1:21, though He went to the jews first for ministry, His Saving Purpose was beyond that Jn 3:17You keep saying it. I still don't understand why.
Do you agree Jesus was first sent to the Jews?
It's worth repeating!You keep saying it. I still don't understand why.
Do you agree Jesus was first sent to the Jews?
I was trying to say much the same as you appear to have said in your post 260 and have also said below my responseSorry thats not what that scripture says.
Of course His saving purpose was beyond the Jews. I never said anything else. The Jews were the first part of the plan, and Matt 1:21 is a prophecy of the first part. That is what I am saying and even the Jews were the first part, Jesus still saved some Gentiles during this first phase.Yes Jesus was first sent to the jews, I never said nothing against that. I said you are trusting in the flesh since you say " His People" in Matt 1:21, though He went to the jews first for ministry, His Saving Purpose was beyond that Jn 3:17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
His People to save was beyond the ethnicity of jews.
Okay if you understand that Jesus was sent to save a world of people, not just one ethnicity, then its folly for you to limit His Saving Purpose in Matt 1:21 to just ethnic jews. If you do that, then you are trusting in the flesh.Of course His saving purpose was beyond the Jews. I never said anything else. The Jews were the first part of the plan, and Matt 1:21 is a prophecy of the first part. That is what I am saying and even the Jews were the first part, Jesus still saved some Gentiles during this first phase.
John 3:16-17 is most likely a commentary of John and not Jesus' own words, and John includes both Jews and Gentiles (whoever in the world) from the complete plan, part 1 and 2.
Since you agree Jesus was first sent to the Jews, why do you have such problems with accepting the first part of the plan was to save Jews and that the prophecy of Matt 1:21 is about that first part of the plan?
Here you have a prophecy from the gospels about salvation including both His people and the Gentiles:
“Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace,
According to Your word;
For my eyes have seen Your salvation,
Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
A Light of revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”
— Luke 2:29-32
I don't think it's folly since this specific prophecy in Matt 1:21 was to a Jew and about the Jews and how the Messiah was relating to them. The angel could have added to Joseph: "He will also save the Gentiles from their sins", but for some reason this was not to be revealed to Joseph at this time. Maybe it wasn't of importance for Joseph to know or maybe it would have brought on more questions than answers, since he was waiting for a savior of the Jews or maybe it just wasn't the right time. Who knows? And no one really knew until after the crucifixion that Gentiles were included into the plan of salvation.Okay if you understand that Jesus was sent to save a world of people, not just one ethnicity, then its folly for you to limit His Saving Purpose in Matt 1:21 to just ethnic jews. If you do that, then you are trusting in the flesh.
Think whether you need to say this. Scripture doesn't record what the angel didn't say to Jesus. Meantime Joseph certainly believed the gentiles would be saved because it's in the OT. Of course Joseph still had questions of some kind. He learned when Jesus at 12 said "I must be about My Father's business".I don't think it's folly since this specific prophecy in Matt 1:21 was to a Jew and about the Jews and how the Messiah was relating to them. The angel could have added to Joseph: "He will also save the Gentiles from their sins", but for some reason this was not to be revealed to Joseph at this time. Maybe it wasn't of importance for Joseph to know or maybe it would have brought on more questions than answers, since he was waiting for a savior of the Jews or maybe it just wasn't the right time. Who knows? And no one really knew until after the crucifixion that Gentiles were included into the plan of salvation.
I'm not sure you understand what I and Brightfame have been discussing. It's what the prophecy of the angel to Joseph in Matt 1:21 say, if it's a prophecy particularily about how this Jesus child is the savior of the Jewish nation or of all elect people, including elect Gentiles. There is no question Jesus was sent to the world for all men, however my argument is that in Matt 1:21 "His people" is a reference to the Jewish people. God bless!Think whether you need to say this. Scripture doesn't record what the angel didn't say to Jesus. Meantime Joseph certainly believed the gentiles would be saved because it's in the OT. Of course Joseph still had questions of some kind. He learned when Jesus at 12 said "I must be about My Father's business".
We don't know how far the angel tied gentiles in with Jesus on this occasion but Joseph knew enough to stick with Mary and Jesus. The angel is obviously not limiting the matter by race. The Messiah's role was not limited by race except in the imagination of the prejudiced. I doubt many people could figure out how this would happen.
A few posts back you accepted the situation without OT denying.
Yes its folly. You base Salvation from sin on the ethnicity of a jew.I don't think it's folly since this specific prophecy in Matt 1:21 was to a Jew and about the Jews and how the Messiah was relating to them. The angel could have added to Joseph: "He will also save the Gentiles from their sins", but for some reason this was not to be revealed to Joseph at this time. Maybe it wasn't of importance for Joseph to know or maybe it would have brought on more questions than answers, since he was waiting for a savior of the Jews or maybe it just wasn't the right time. Who knows? And no one really knew until after the crucifixion that Gentiles were included into the plan of salvation.
It is incidental and was practical, that revelation was first shown to a clan and a group of tribes to be able to pass it on further. Dispensations 1a and 1b in a nutshell! ;-)Yes its folly. You base Salvation from sin on the ethnicity of a jew.
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