Masturbation as a Sin (A Different Approach)

[AlexDTX]

Can you provide the Scripture you're referring to and define "lust" in this context please?

1Jn_2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
James 3:15 tells us what wanting to justify masturbation is:
Jas_3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

I don't recall saying lusting after your wife is okay. Can you show me where I said that? I could be wrong but don't think I did.

What bothers me is that this is a very narrow view of the topic.

"For example, is it a sin to touch:
When thinking about your spouse?
To mutually touch with your spouse?
When thinking about your spouse who may have long passed away, or left you?
To look at images of your spouse, or a video that you may have made together with your spouse? (this technically meets the criteria of being pornography by it's current definition)

Hebrews tells us:
Heb_13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Bed undefiled means with your living, breathing wife, not a photo or thinking about her.

The term lust in our minds is misleading. We usually think of it in terms of sex, but one can lust for money, power, fame, control and any number of such variations. Biblical lust is the breaking of the 10th commandment:

Exo_20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

What most men consider to be their natural sex drive is nothing more than lust. Lust is desire multiplied by imagination. Desire for one's wife is godly and right, but when one lusts the imagination of what you desired blinds you to what really is there.

Why? What is the difference when I look at her in front of me, or in a picture she sent me? I don't see how one time it's objectification, but the next it's not. This doesn't really make sense to me.

Speaking for myself, while assuming this is the same for many, but not all, others, when I lusted for my wife, I was insensitive to what she felt because I was consumed with gratifying myself. Masturbation contributed to this problem. It took the Lord a long time to ween me from seeing her as the object that brings me gratification, to being sensitive to her as a person.

In its essence masturbation is self centered gratification, not other centered. Godly love is other centered, not self centered. Frequent, consistent masturbation hardens your heart and further encourages selfishness. The fruit of the Spirit is self control. Masturbation erodes self control and increases viewing your wife as an object and not a person with feelings and desires of her own.

We live in a world that encourages lust. We are all being desensitized to godliness through television, movies, songs, office talk and more.

Rev_18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I've decided not to comment on this because I wouldn't want to rub anyone up the wrong way!

 

[John Bowen]

Just so we're clear I'll state my position. My position is that the Bible doesn't definitively state one way or the other that masturbation is a sin. However, if someone is personally convicted about it, stick to your own convictions.

I do have a different take on this topic though that isn't often considered. Many seem to presuppose a very specific and narrow definition of masturbation and / or, it's situational context. They typically imagine single men or women in this situation.

What bothers me is that this is a very narrow view of the topic.

For example, is it a sin to touch: There are no free lunches as they say .Einstein proved everything is energy and we only have so much .So its your choice how you want to spend it, but it comes with a cost everything has a price tag . So we are using energy in a negative way by masturbating which is a self -centered activity its not raising up life .We are all guilty of .The question is if we know better will we do better. . , or a video that you may have made together with your spouse? (this technically meets the criteria of being pornography by it's current definition)
What do you think CF, what is your opinion?

Cheers,
Tetra

 

[John Bowen]

Everything is energy as Einstein proved .There are no free lunches everything comes with a cost has a price tag on it . It's our choice how we want to spend our energy .Masturbating which we all have done is a self-centered act its not raising up life so its misusing God's energy . Which will take away a little bit of your life force.You can look at old rockstars who are dying left and right and see how a life of sex , drugs ,rock have made them look old way beyond their years. So like everything it's our responsibility . If people knew better they would do better.

 

[Dave-W]

It would be sharing a totally self serving activity with a partner...But still, only accomplishing serving a fleshly desire for your own gain, as your partner gains nothing by your activity or vice versa....

Paul Byerly (site owner of the christian discussion board themarriagebed [dot] com) did a survey of married men who were very opposed to masturbation. Almost every one wanted to watch their wife touch.

So if she does that, are you trying to say he would get nothing out of it?

 

[Dave-W]

Masturbating isn't ok inside or outside of marriage.

Then what do you do with Song of Solomon 5.2-5?

 

[Dave-W]

Based on this logic every time I have sex with my wife, I'm actually masturbating.

No you are not.

Back in the late 90s the church I was at played a set of videos "Maximized Manhood" by Ed Cole. In it he said that when a husband has relations with his wife he is only "vaginally masturbating."

What a load of [expletive deleted].

 

[salt-n-light]

Just so we're clear I'll state my position. My position is that the Bible doesn't definitively state one way or the other that masturbation is a sin. However, if someone is personally convicted about it, stick to your own convictions.

I do have a different take on this topic though that isn't often considered. Many seem to presuppose a very specific and narrow definition of masturbation and / or, it's situational context. They typically imagine single men or women in this situation.

What bothers me is that this is a very narrow view of the topic.

For example, is it a sin to touch:

• When thinking about your spouse?
• To mutually touch with your spouse?
• When thinking about your spouse who may have long passed away, or left you?
• To look at images of your spouse, or a video that you may have made together with your spouse? (this technically meets the criteria of being pornography by it's current definition)

What do you think CF, what is your opinion?

Cheers,
Tetra

1. Depends on your thoughts. Some dream of things that probably they wouldn't be able to do with the spouse or knows they wouldn't t have approve of doing in real life.
2.Why would someone do that? I would just have sex with my spouse?
3.That wouldn't be healthy.
4.Again, just have sex with your spouse.

When it comes to masturbation, it is more of a self-gratifying act, even if the thoughts involve the spouse. Because it's still a framework of no needed dynamics from the spouse, its like texting and video gaming with the person, versus talking face to face and going out to places. I feel like the deeper question is why there is more dependency on the representation or alternative of sex, then the actual sex? Why is there more questions and concerns on masturbation and porn, than focusing on how to be pleasing to your spouse, and make the acts with them better for both parties? I feel like those questions more of the bigger issue, the acts are just the fruition and outlet of trying to fulfill inner desires that are not outwardly expressed, or maybe can only be expressed through the imagination of one's mind.

The culture of escapism and the dependency of it at any angle, even if God didn't list it, have mental consequences.

 

[Tetra]

1. Depends on your thoughts. Some dream of things that probably they wouldn't be able to do with the spouse or knows they wouldn't t have approve of doing in real life.
2.Why would someone do that? I would just have sex with my spouse?
3.That wouldn't be healthy.
4.Again, just have sex with your spouse.

When it comes to masturbation, it is more of a self-gratifying act, even if the thoughts involve the spouse. Because it's still a framework of no needed dynamics from the spouse, its like texting and video gaming with the person, versus talking face to face and going out to places. I feel like the deeper question is why there is more dependency on the representation or alternative of sex, then the actual sex? Why is there more questions and concerns on masturbation and porn, than focusing on how to be pleasing to your spouse, and make the acts with them better for both parties? I feel like those questions more of the bigger issue, the acts are just the fruition and outlet of trying to fulfill inner desires that are not outwardly expressed, or maybe can only be expressed through the imagination of one's mind.

The culture of escapism and the dependency of it at any angle, even if God didn't list it, have mental consequences.

You have a point regarding the nature of our culture, however, I think I'd disagree regarding the nature of sex.

To me, everything is sex, not just what is "actual sex". This reminds me of teenagers who say their not having sex because their only having oral sex and not actual sex. This is silly to me, but whatever, you can take a similar stance if you want.

To your answers to my post, first, sometimes a spouse isn't always around to have sex. Second, and I don't mean to offend, but this would be extremely boring to me. I wouldn't even date a person if they were only interested in simply intercourse. My partner and I have been together 15 years and we were married at 20. Part of the reason I think we have been happily together so long is both of our interests in trying anything together in this regard. That said, I understand this is subjective, so rock on if you feel otherwise.

 

[Tetra]

It might be a self-comforting activity, but it becomes sinful when it takes the place of finding comfort in God and His Word, and when we live in the past. Thanks to this thread I feel I need to make a renewed effort to train my mind to be more present to what's going on around me, because it would be easy to drift off into fantasies.

I was thinking a bit more about this post. It seems a bit odd of a response. God's word doesn't satisfy me sexually, nor do I think it should... or do you think it should??

 

[Tetra]

Then what do you do with Song of Solomon 5.2-5?

2 things will happen:
1. No response.
2. Because it's poetry, claim you've incorrectly translated the verse.

It's always easier to bend the Bible to suit a worldview than it is to bend a worldview to suit the Bible.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What do you mean by "literally means"?

Current definition:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pornography

A video of myself and spouse technically meets the current definition, no?

To some extent, I don't worry myself too much about the current English definitions about what this (pron) is or isn't; no, as a Christian, I'm primarily concerned with the inherent meanings and social/spiritual connotations that are conveyed by the full content of the Bible. So, from a Christian perspective, I'm not overly concerned with what the present CIVIC sense is since the Bible trumps all of this.

As to your OP, I think it all boils down to: if any of this doesn't involve your spouse, then it's a sin. So, 1) no, 2) no, 3) not really, and 4) no (as long as you're not putting it out there on the net for the rest of the world to see).

 

[Tetra]

To some extent, I don't worry myself too much about the current English definitions about what this (pron) is or isn't; no, as a Christian, I'm primarily concerned with the inherent meanings and social/spiritual connotations that are conveyed by the full content of the Bible. So, from a Christian perspective, I'm not overly concerned with what the present CIVIC sense is since the Bible trumps all of this.

As to your OP, I think it all boils down to: if any of this doesn't involve your spouse, then it's a sin. So, 1) no, 2) no, 3) not really, and 4) no (as long as you're not putting it out there on the net for the rest of the world to see).

I would agree for the most part with some minor exceptions. Even single people masturbating we can't hold dogmatically as a sin, I'm thinking of a friend who had to do so in a clinic for medical reasons. I guess I'm just trying to point out that there is nuance to this discussion.

I do have reasons to conclude masturbating can be immoral outside what has already been expressed here in this thread though, maybe I'll share some of my thoughts after on it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I would agree for the most part with some minor exceptions. Even single people masturbating we can't hold dogmatically as a sin, I'm thinking of a friend who had to do so in a clinic for medical reasons. I guess I'm just trying to point out that there is nuance to this discussion.

And the issue of masturbation is one that you'll very rarely see me discuss. To me, Raunch Culture that tears away the biblical framework of family and "godly" type of relationships, both physical and psychological, is the problem; while masturbation, in and of itself, is a much lesser issue. If single people need to resort to self-stimulation at times. Fine. But they should do so without ANY resort to the mediation of Raunch Culture media.

I do have reasons to conclude masturbating can be immoral outside what has already been expressed here in this thread though, maybe I'll share some of my thoughts after on it.

That's fine. Who knows? We might even be in agreement.

 

[2tim_215]

Then what do you do with Song of Solomon 5.2-5?

I don't believe that it's referring to masturbation and if it is, not suggesting it's right. You can interpret it in more than one way. I think she was probably sleeping and furthermore, just because it is in the Bible doesn't mean it's necessarily good. We, the church are supposed to be the bride of Christ and does that mean we're supposed to have sex with Him? It's known as agape love. I don't even know if there will be sex in heaven (which may be disappointing to some people). I do know that there won't be marriage in heaven other than to the lamb:
Matthew 22:30 (KJV) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

 

[Dave-W]

and if it is, not suggesting it's right.

The bible is clear in condemning that which is wrong.

 

[salt-n-light]

You have a point regarding the nature of our culture, however, I think I'd disagree regarding the nature of sex.

To me, everything is sex, not just what is "actual sex". This reminds me of teenagers who say their not having sex because their only having oral sex and not actual sex. This is silly to me, but whatever, you can take a similar stance if you want.

To your answers to my post, first, sometimes a spouse isn't always around to have sex. Second, and I don't mean to offend, but this would be extremely boring to me. I wouldn't even date a person if they were only interested in simply intercourse. My partner and I have been together 15 years and we were married at 20. Part of the reason I think we have been happily together so long is both of our interests in trying anything together in this regard. That said, I understand this is subjective, so rock on if you feel otherwise.

We are in agreement that yes everything is basically sex and is displayed in different forms. But it’s not always because I desire sex. Our emotions are not that linear and not every desire of sex is a direct need of actual sex. It could be of need of intimacy or loneliness ( like in your example) that come to fruition in whatever form. It could be a memory, pleasant or tramatic that sex eases the pain of. It could be a spontaneous event that sparked curiosity and lead one to explore it through touching yourself. In short, just because the action shows “ I desire sex”, doesn’t mean the cure would be sex. But it is a valid thing to ask, if one desire sex defined by God in all its satisfying glory, with a man/woman, and their resolution is something outside that definition, why did they gravitate towards something outside of it, why is it deemed something necessary to do?

My thing is that often times we more question whether or not I can do certain acts as oppose to questioning why we do them in the first place. Why do I desire to have the feeling of sex outside the parameters established by God, which is between man and woman? Why is that you can’t help but touch if she is away that long? Why is it a marker of success or a glue for your marriage? Just self-examination.

It may seem tedious, but maybe it would save couples a lot of money they pour into therapists and marriage counselors that would ask the same type of questions.

We don’t question the heart, it’s just always assumed that it’s of good intent and doesn’t harm anyone so it’s not sinful. That’s not a cultural thing, it’s spiritual.

 

[2tim_215]

2 things will happen:
1. No response.
2. Because it's poetry, claim you've incorrectly translated the verse.

It's always easier to bend the Bible to suit a worldview than it is to bend a worldview to suit the Bible.

Isn't that what you're doing? Masturbation being ok is the worldview, not the biblical or Christian view.

 

[2tim_215]

The bible is clear in condemning that which is wrong.

Well, lust is definitely wrong if you want to put it that way.

 

[Dave-W]

Well, lust is definitely wrong if you want to put it that way.

Agreed. But you need to make a BIBLICAL link between sinful lust and M. That has not been done.