Mary - Christian Prototype

[JoeP222w]

No. I deny that you're given the ability to judge people's hearts.

I never said I could judge people's hearts. But I can observe there actions, read their words, hear what they say, and the Bible says you will know them by their fruit.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I never said I could judge people's hearts. But I can observe there actions, read their words, hear what they say, and the Bible says you will know them by their fruit.

On the basis of their fruit, considering the large numbers of Roman Catholic martyrs and their incredibly high total and per capita spending on charity, they seem to past the test pretty well.

 

[JoeP222w]

On the basis of their fruit, considering the large numbers of Roman Catholic martyrs and their incredibly high total and per capita spending on charity, they seem to past the test pretty well.

Being martyred does not make one righteous before God, nor does donations to charity.

I am speaking of fruit in regards to Biblical truth. I find nothing in scripture that makes a person righteous before God because they were martyred or gave to charity (that would make salvation a product of works).

Nor does anyone being martyred or giving to the poor defend the unbiblical veneration of Mary, of the belief that Mary was a Christian prototype.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Being martyred does not make one righteous before God, nor does donations to charity.

That's not what Jesus said.

 

[Philip_B]

Being martyred does not make one righteous before God, nor does donations to charity.

I am speaking of fruit in regards to Biblical truth. I find nothing in scripture that makes a person righteous before God because they were martyred or gave to charity (that would make salvation a product of works).

Nor does anyone being martyred or giving to the poor defend the unbiblical veneration of Mary, of the belief that Mary was a Christian prototype.

Possibly one of the most ingracious responses I have yet seen. Perhaps you should read again the account of Stephens martyrdom in Acts and think again.

 

[JoeP222w]

That's not what Jesus said.

Please share the verse where Jesus says being martyred makes you righteous before God, where martyrdom is the root of righteousness before God.

Likewise, share the verse where giving to the poor is the root of salvation.


Giving to the poor is the fruit of salvation, but giving to the poor does not make you righteous before God. Similarly, being martyred is not what makes you righteous before God. You may martyred because of your faith in God, but being martyred is not what gives you faith (or salvation) in God.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Please share the verse where Jesus says being martyred makes you righteous before God, where martyrdom is the root of righteousness before God.

Likewise, share the verse where giving to the poor is the root of salvation.

I won't do that, because in your earlier post, you said "righteous before God," not "root of salvation."

You are attempting to backpeddal from a very disagreeable statement, which was by the way unbiblical, into a generic non-Pelagian soteriology. I am not prepared to entertain such a debate approach.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

On the basis of their fruit, considering the large numbers of Roman Catholic martyrs and their incredibly high total and per capita spending on charity, they seem to past the test pretty well.

Giving to the poor is the fruit of salvation, but giving to the poor does not make you righteous before God. Similarly, being martyred is not what makes you righteous before God. You may martyred because of your faith in God, but being martyred is not what gives you faith (or salvation) in God.

Thus, you prove my point that the Catholics display good fruits. Their charitable giving, which per capita and in toto exceed that of all other denominations, and their superior rate of martyrdom (which lags only behind Holy Orthodoxy), attest to a vital and living faith in Jesus Christ.

I am frankly not even sure why you felt compelled to make the very disagreeable statement preceeding this one, since it is entirely inconsistent with what you said subsequently.

 

[redleghunter]

Please share the verse where Jesus says being martyred makes you righteous before God, where martyrdom is the root of righteousness before God.

Likewise, share the verse where giving to the poor is the root of salvation.


Giving to the poor is the fruit of salvation, but giving to the poor does not make you righteous before God. Similarly, being martyred is not what makes you righteous before God. You may martyred because of your faith in God, but being martyred is not what gives you faith (or salvation) in God.

Most of the martyred for Christ were given ultimatums. Worship the emperor or some pagan god or deny Jesus Christ. This is what Jesus says for those who deny Him and those who proclaim Him.

Matthew 10: NKJV

32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

There is also evidence God prepares a place of honor for those who are martyred for the faith:

Revelation 6: NKJV

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Most of the martyred for Christ were given ultimatums. Worship the emperor or some pagan god or deny Jesus Christ. This is what Jesus says for those who deny Him and those who proclaim Him.

Matthew 10: NKJV

32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

There is also evidence God prepares a place of honor for those who are martyred for the faith:

Revelation 6: NKJV

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Indeed so. And we find numerous other verses on the importance of alms giving.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Being martyred does not make one righteous before God, nor does donations to charity.

Being martyred for Christ actually does make you righteous before God.

I am speaking of fruit in regards to Biblical truth. I find nothing in scripture that makes a person righteous before God because they were martyred or gave to charity (that would make salvation a product of works).

Well, this is where we differ, because we don't hold ourselves to Scripture alone.

Nor does anyone being martyred or giving to the poor defend the unbiblical veneration of Mary, of the belief that Mary was a Christian prototype.

How is it unbiblical? The 10 Commandments include "Honor your father and mother." Mary is the mother of the Church, being the Mother of Jesus.

 

[redleghunter]

Indeed so. And we find numerous other verses on the importance of alms giving.

We don't have to search hard for that either.

Acts 10: KJV
10 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.

4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

 

[Light of the East]

Please share the verse where Jesus says being martyred makes you righteous before God, where martyrdom is the root of righteousness before God.

Likewise, share the verse where giving to the poor is the root of salvation.


Giving to the poor is the fruit of salvation, but giving to the poor does not make you righteous before God. Similarly, being martyred is not what makes you righteous before God. You may martyred because of your faith in God, but being martyred is not what gives you faith (or salvation) in God.

Salvation has been accomplished on the Cross by Christ. All mankind is redeemed:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

So the issue for us is not some sort of legal payoff to God, nor is it a declaration of "Not Guilty" before God which makes us "snow covered dung hills." The real issue is entering into union with Christ through baptism, and then becoming like Christ because we have been made partakers of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4).

Righteousness is not therefore a declaration of legal innocence, but rather an ontological reality. As I understand it, theologians of many different stripes have defined "righteous" as being "in right standing" or "in right relationship" with God. The Cross is the beginning of that work, for according to Romans 5:18, it has put all mankind into relationship with God through the Cross. But that is just the beginning. We are to become like Christ.

This is why Romans 2: 5-10, John 5: 28-29, Revelation 20: 12, and Matthew 25: 33-46 speak of those who have done "good works" as inheriting eternal life. The good works do not earn eternal life, but rather are the means by which we change our nature into Christ's nature, putting on the new man and starving the old man of selfishness to death. Those who feed the hungry, care for the poor, clothe the naked, and witness the truth to the point of death are following in Christ's footsteps. They are doing exactly what the God/man did on earth, and in doing so, they feed the divine nature within and change themselves ontologically into the likeness of Christ.

Full salvation, i.e, becoming "gods" will be to fully put on Christ and to have nothing of the old sin nature within us. And our good works are what aid us in becoming Christ-like and fulfilling the destiny which God has for mankind.

Thus it is said:

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

You do righteousness because you are righteous, but at the same time, doing righteousness makes you righteous because it feed the divine nature within and starves the man of sin within your flesh.

I am fairly certain that you believe a declarative righteousness (aka "imputed righteousness:") in which you are declared righteous and thus are righteous because God declared it. No....according to 1 John, we are righteous because we actually do that which is righteous, and many Bible passages back that up.

 

[JoeP222w]

I won't do that, because in your earlier post, you said "righteous before God," not "root of salvation."

You are attempting to backpeddal from a very disagreeable statement, which was by the way unbiblical, into a generic non-Pelagian soteriology. I am not prepared to entertain such a debate approach.

Not at all. Righteousness before God and salvation are closely related because they are both based entirely in Jesus Christ.

 

[Light of the East]

Not at all. Righteousness before God and salvation are closely related because they are both based entirely in Jesus Christ.

If righteousness is based entirely in Jesus Christ, then how is it that Abel is called "righteous Abel" in Matthew 23:35 and Hebrews 11:4, Abel living some 6,000 years before the Incarnation?

Explain, please.

 

[JoeP222w]

Thus, you prove my point that the Catholics display good fruits. Their charitable giving, which per capita and in toto exceed that of all other denominations, and their superior rate of martyrdom (which lags only behind Holy Orthodoxy), attest to a vital and living faith in Jesus Christ.

I am frankly not even sure why you felt compelled to make the very disagreeable statement preceeding this one, since it is entirely inconsistent with what you said subsequently.

Martyrdom or giving to the poor is not an absolute sign of good fruits. Some Atheists have been killed because of their Atheism and some Atheists give to the poor. That in no way makes them righteous before God.

And I would suspect that the argument that charitable giving by Catholics is the greatest, is unprovable and suspect, but really not relevant to the point at hand.

 

[JoeP222w]

Being martyred for Christ actually does make you righteous before God.

Not true, because that would mean salvation is of works. There are no saints in Heaven who were martyred boasting that they are there because they were martyred.

"Mary is the mother of the Church, being the Mother of Jesus."

Mary is not the Mother of the Church. That is a false doctrine.

 

[JoeP222w]

All mankind is redeemed:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

This implies that "redeemed" man is in Hell. That makes no sense.

 

[JoeP222w]

If righteousness is based entirely in Jesus Christ, then how is it that Abel is called "righteous Abel" in Matthew 23:35 and Hebrews 11:4, Abel living some 6,000 years before the Incarnation?

Explain, please.

Jesus has always existed, because He is God.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Martyrdom or giving to the poor is not an absolute sign of good fruits.

It is if done by Christians.

Some Atheists have been killed because of their Atheism and some Atheists give to the poor. That in no way makes them righteous before God.

This is a complete red herring, because such atheists were not martyred confessing Christ.

Had they been martyred for Christ, our Lord would confess them before the Father.

Anyone who dies for our Lord is a saint.