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Mary cannot be Queen.

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Fireinfolding

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Heres a few snips too ivebeenshown I pulled from a few places where you can catch some kool glimpses of Christ and the church in various types

2Cr 11:2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


After sons (and the following verse shows the relevance)


Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

After this similitude...

Isaiah 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

Now to bride and bridegroom

John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

The man leaving father and mother is really speaking of Christ and the Church

Ephes 5:3 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Ephes 5:42 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

As first Adam was first formed from the dust of the ground the last Adam (Lord from heaven) is formed "in us" (Christ in you) the ground of the truth (his Spirit)

1Cr 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come.

Now here...

Rev 21:9 Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Likened to a mountain, and those who trust in the Lord are as Zion

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

And again

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,


Notice "these" are for signs and WONDERS (and where he dwells)

Isaiah 8:8 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

A WONDER (hint) lol

Revelation 12 1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Which is as clothed with Christ (the Sun of righteousness) which is also as the bridegroom

Psalms 19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

Paterns

Isiah 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

Again...

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Clothed with the sun, or clothed with Christ is her attire

Jerm 2:32 Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

Thats why it says...

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ.


Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.



Figure of fine linen


Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Isaiah 54:17... This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Even as a woman in travail is spoken of to his disciples is being delivered of the child (under the law) unto the adoption of sons = time of life appointed of the Father, which Christ in them. Though I just snapped this together from other studies, the God of peace bruises Satan under THEIR (the plurals) feet too.
 
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ebia

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Scripture should be read,studied,and interpreted within the holy tradition of the Church.
What value or point is there in engagement if all you have to say is "we are right [no matter how poor our case] because we are the church and you are wrong [no matter how good yours] because you are not"?
 
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ivebeenshown

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What value or point is there in engagement if all you have to say is "we are right [no matter how poor our case] because we are the church and you are wrong [no matter how good yours] because you are not"?

Indeed, the Holy Tradition of interpreting scripture should only refer to using discernment of said scripture within the context of other scripture (i.e., not any catechism or human individual) in search of truth and for your own sake and the sake of others.
Pointing to a catechism, especially the Roman Catholic catechism, does not adequately interpret scripture with scripture. Instead, many references are given to extra-biblical writings, many of which are in ancient languages, some of which cannot even be obtained without some good effort or payment, when their catechism could just spell it out with scriptures.

The ten commandments were a catechism. The two commandments given by Christ are our only catechism -- which means summary of doctrine.

The summary of Christ's commands and scriptures for me, please.
 
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laconicstudent

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It is truly meet and right to bless you, O Theotokos, Ever blessed and most pure, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim, Without defilement you gave birth to God the Word. True Theotokos, we magnify you!

:crosseo:
 
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laconicstudent

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ivebeenshown

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No she doesn't.

The resurrection goes:

Christ the firstfruits

THEN

They which are his, at his coming

If Mary is not Christ, she is resurrected at his return.

Source: 1 Corinthians 15

Scriptural evidence.

Other thread please! :)
 
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Gregory Thompson

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All this talk about the Queen of Heaven reminds me of that passage in Jeremiah . are the communion wafers kinda like a "cake" also?

no just kidding about the wafers . but seriously . queen of heaven . who was in the marketing department for the Theotokos institution committee?
 
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JimR-OCDS

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A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.
Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, 4 with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems.
Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.

She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne.

The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days. Revelation 12: 1-6

So who was the child that this woman gave birth to, if not Jesus and was Mary not the woman who gave birth to him?

then we have this in Luke

And Mary said: "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
my spirit rejoices in God my savior. For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.
His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him.
He has shown might with his arm, dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart.
He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones but lifted up the lowly.

The hungry he has filled with good things; the rich he has sent away empty.
He has helped Israel his servant, remembering his mercy,
according to his promise to our fathers, to Abraham and to his descendants forever." Luke 1: 46-55

To be called blessed, one would have to have a special place in heaven.

Jim
 
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ivebeenshown

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So who was the child that this woman gave birth to, if not Jesus and was Mary not the woman who gave birth to him?

Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem.

Isaiah 66
7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

then we have this in Luke

To be called blessed, one would have to have a special place in heaven.

Jim


Genesis 1

21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

A blessing is a blessing. God blessed even the animals.

Isaiah 19
24In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

A blessing found within Luke, the very book you quote:

Luke 12

37Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

Are those servants, which be the saints, not also called blessed throughout the generations? Is one who does the will of the Father not blessed, with the blessed hope of the resurrection?

Mary is blessed indeed, but to regard her as Queen is to regard all the saints as Queen.
 
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PilgrimToChrist

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Those who keep the commandments of Christ are not Mary's seed, they are counted as Israel's seed -- heirs according to the promise.

Mary, Israel, the Church -- these are all intertwined ideas. To try to separate them in the twelfth chapter of the Apocalypse or anywhere else is misleading.

Revelation 12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

The woman here, who gives birth to Jesus is clearly Mary. "Birth pangs" here refer not to the physical labor in giving birth of Jesus, for birth pangs are a consequence of Original Sin, from which she was saved; but rather to the spiritual labor she endured giving birth to the Church while Jesus hung on the Cross. But Mary also represents the Church because what the Church is, is exemplified in her.

WP-MS54.jpg


Mary is both a daughter of Jerusalem and mother of the Church, the two ideas are not in conflict.

Galatians 4
26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

This is the verse which opens the Fifth Glorious Mystery -- the Crowning of the Blessed Virgin -- in the public Rosary before Sunday Mass. Ironic that you would use it to try to show a distinction between Jerusalem and Mary.

The Jerusalem which is above is not the physical, earthly city of Jerusalem. Rather, Jerusalem here represents our Heavenly home:

Gal 4:22-27 said:
For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, and the other by a free woman. But he who was of the bondwoman, was born according to the flesh: but he of the free woman, was by promise. Which things are said by an allegory. For these are the two testaments. The one from mount Sina, engendering unto bondage; which is Agar: For Sina is a mountain in Arabia, which hath affinity to that Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But that Jerusalem, which is above, is free: which is our mother. For it is written: Rejoice, thou barren, that bearest not: break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for many are the children of the desolate, more than of her that hath a husband.

Mary is prefigured in the Old Testament by the Holy Mountain, Jerusalem, the Temple, the Ark of the Covenant, Judith, Esther, Eve, Sophia, and many other people and things. Some of these prophecies can only be understood in the light of faith, reading Scripture as the Church has read it through the centuries.

Also, Jesus himself did not revere his own mother Mary on a level higher than any other who keeps his commandments.

Are all people on the same level? No. Some people are given more opportunities for advancement than others -- this is the mystery of election. Some people respond to more of those opportunities than other people. Every grace was offered to Mary and she responded to every grace. That is how she advanced higher than anyone else, to take the place Lucifer would have held.

Mt 20:20-23 said:
Then came to him the mother of the sons of Zebedee with her sons, adoring and asking something of him. Who said to her: What wilt thou? She saith to him: Say that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left, in thy kingdom. And Jesus answering, said: You know not what you ask. Can you drink the chalice that I shall drink? They say to him: We can. He saith to them: My chalice indeed you shall drink; but to sit on my right or left hand, is not mine to give to you, but to them for whom it is prepared by my Father.

Who are the two individuals who were prepared by God to sit at the right and left hand of Jesus -- the highest and second highest place after Christ Himself? None other than the Mother of God and her Protector -- the Blessed Virgin Mary and St. Joseph.

Mary was the vessel which God used to bring forth our savior. She is not married to Jesus, our King, who is the King of us all, and of heaven, and the angels, so she cannot be Queen.

Matthew 22
30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Mark 12
25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Mary is, however, Mother of God and therefore the Queen Mother, which in Jewish terminology is called simply the queen.

QueenMum.jpg


But, furthermore, you have a problem saying that there is no marriage in Heaven.


Apoc 21:2 said:
And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Mt 9:11 said:
And Jesus said to them: Can the children of the bridegroom mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then they shall fast.

Many times Christ refers to Himself as the Bridegroom. In the Book of the Apocalypse, we see the Heavenly Jerusalem, understood to be the Church, personified as Mary, as the Bride of Christ. Christ refers to the Kingdom of Heaven (as we read in the Gospel this past Sunday) as The Wedding Feast of the Lamb.

Mary is indeed, the most glorified and blessed creature in all of Creation, chosen from before the formation of the world to be the Mother of God. As she gave birth to Christ's physical body, so too does she give birth to Christ's Mystical Body.

St. Louis de Montfort said:
"This man and that man is born in her" (Ps. 86:5), says the Holy Ghost through the Royal Psalmist. According to the explanation of some of the Fathers, the first man that is born in Mary is the Man-God, Jesus Christ; the second is a mere man, the child of God and Mary by adoption. If Jesus Christ, the Head of men, is born in her, then the predestinate, who are the members of that Head, ought also to be born in her, by necessary of consequence.

One and the same mother does not bring forth into the world the head without the members, or the member without the head; for this would be a monster of nature. So in like manner, in order of grace, the head and the members are born of one and the same Mother; and if a member of the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ - that is to say, one of the predestinate - were born of any other mother than Mary, who has produced the Head, he would not be one of the predestinate, nor a member of Jesus Christ, but simply a monster in the order of grace.

She who gave birth to the Head must necessarily be the one to give birth to the Body. Just as we have a physical mother and father, both immediately (our biological mother and father) and ultimately (Adam and Eve), so too do we have a spiritual mother and father (Mary and God). She is our Mother and our Queen.

coronation-2.jpg
 
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sunlover1

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In the ancient traditions upon which these metaphors for speaking about Jesus and Mary are based, the mother of the King stands as Queen until the King marries his bride.

God is Jesus' father and Mary is his mother.

Jesus Christ is King and his spouse will be Queen, when the wedding feast ushers in the consummation of all things.

Until that time, Jesus' mother is Queen.

If it makes you feel better, you may refer to her as the dowager Queen of Heaven. However, that would imply that God the Father is dead, so you may want to avoid it.
Interesting.
So you're saying that even though we're king/priests.. we will be queen?
 
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sunlover1

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What value or point is there in engagement if all you have to say is "we are right [no matter how poor our case] because we are the church and you are wrong [no matter how good yours] because you are not"?
Sometimes it seems hopeless. but with God all things are possible.
 
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ivebeenshown

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Mary, Israel, the Church -- these are all intertwined ideas. To try to separate them in the twelfth chapter of the Apocalypse or anywhere else is misleading. The woman here, who gives birth to Jesus is clearly Mary.

Trying to call Mary 'Zion', who delivers the man-child in Isaiah 66, is misleading and leads to worship of Mary. Mary is surely a member of the body, but she is not the body and the mother of us all. Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, she is the mother of us all.

Who are the two individuals who were prepared by God to sit at the right and left hand of Jesus -- the highest and second highest place after Christ Himself? None other than the Mother of God and her Protector -- the Blessed Virgin Mary and St. Joseph.
Mark 10:40
But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

Jesus did not say they were individuals. Here is the direct reference to Jesus' left and right hand, found in the book of Matthew:

Matthew 25
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mary will indeed be at his right hand, and probably Joseph -- but so will everyone else who has kept the commandments in faith. Nobody should want to be on his left hand.

But, furthermore, you have a problem saying that there is no marriage in Heaven.
But ye do err.

Luke 20
35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Bride/bridegroom is surely a metaphor, for Jesus has said: those accounted worthy to obtain the kingdom are not given in marriage. We must not contradict the words of our LORD.

Also, this verse serves as an example for us: Jesus mentions a resurrection from the dead and Paul mentions some who do err, saying the "resurrection is past."

Mary is not yet resurrected, therefore, she cannot currently and actively do anything for you.

Furthermore, Jesus has spoken: whosoever does the will of his Father is his mother and brethren. You cannot have it both ways -- if Mary is queen of heaven, Paul must also be queen of heaven, as Paul did the will of the Father, which Jesus says makes Paul his mother.

 
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