Mary cannot be Queen.

[Stryder06]

And then there's also the verse that tells us to hold fast to the traditions taught to us. Not to mention, that verse is talking about Isaiah's prophecies. Isaiah 8 - Passage[wash my mouth]Lookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

Verses 11 to 20 give a very different picture of what your verse means.

Not at all.

And the traditions handed down weren't randomly decided teachings, they were the traditions that had been learned from the scriptures which were in turn taught to the gentiles, who in turn were to teach them to the next generation.

 

[Stryder06]

Isa 8: 11-20

11For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying, 12Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.
13Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
16Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
17And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
18Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.
19And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

I don't see anything here that paints a different picture then what I said. God tells Isaiah to look to Him and fear Him. He says His word will be an offense to Israel.

His law will be bound up with His disciples, not tradition, and those who have truth will speak according to the law and the testimony, again, nothing about tradition.

 

[MamaZ]

Scripture does not even mention a queen of heaven lol.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Scripture does not even mention a queen of heaven lol.

BibleGateway - Quick search: queen heaven

 

[ivebeenshown]

No, Jesus wasn't shifting definitions. You just think he was. You're taking a bunch of different metaphorical phrases and pretending they all mean the same thing. Your logic is something along the lines of "if I am Christian, then I'm Jesus' mother!" That doesn't make any sense at all. It's speaking to something completely different. It's not leveling the heavenly playing field like you think it is. Context is everything. Paul also tells us that the prayer of a righteous man is very powerful. I think that alone nullifies your idea.

I appreciate your discussion with me, and I obviously have more study and improvements to make. Thus I will not answer this paragraph for now.

Yeah, and... ? The New Testament was not canonized until 300 years after the founding of Christianity. What did the believers do during those 3 centuries?

Well, according to what we saw taking place in Paul's letters, the churches were having a difficult time actually doing what Jesus and the apostles taught -- including the Roman Church.

ALSO: "The Word became flesh," not "flesh became the Word!"

 

[MamaZ]

BibleGateway - Quick search: queen heaven

False queen of heaven here. I am speaking about a true queen of heaven. We do not see in scripture that Heaven has a queen.

 

[Stryder06]

BibleGateway - Quick search: queen heaven

Good stuff. The practice is pagan to its root.
Isis: Queen of Heaven

 

[98cwitr]

ah to take scripture out of context....Jeremiah is writing about pagan rituals

3Because of their wickedness which they have committed to provoke me to anger, in that they went to burn incense, and to serve other gods, whom they knew not, neither they, ye, nor your fathers.

The point of Jeremiah 44 is that you DONT WORSHIP ANYONE BUT GOD. Period...or face His wrath. One of the two.

 

[ivebeenshown]

The Word became flesh. The flesh did not become the Word.

Both the 1828 and 1913 editions of Webster's Dictionary said that to "conceive" meant "to receive into the womb and ... begin the formation of the embryo."[10] It was only in 1875 that Oskar Hertwig discovered that fertilization includes the penetration of a spermatozoon into an ovum. Thus, the term "conception" was in use long before the details of fertilization were discovered. By 1966, a more precise meaning of the word "conception" could be found in common-use dictionaries: the formation of a viable zygote.[11]
Source: Beginning of pregnancy controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Fireinfolding]

Pharisees had the law and prophets and psalms and canonized them before Jesus's time and Jesus rode the Pharisees and their scribes (Talmud? Like the catechism?) pretty hard!

Paul was a pharisee, he too says...

Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

I dont think theres anything new under the sun in that respect, holding to the tradition of men as Jesus points out, they all had the covenants, the writings, the name, the traditions etc, sorta mirroring the same thing we see today.

Even this was traditionally accepted of these over the word of the Lord

Jerm 44:16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee.

Jerm 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Highlighted in green what they have done always from a standpoint of tradition (we've always done this, OUR FATHERS etc). Which can be seen (even here) as rejecting the commandment of God which come by Jeremiah and even here they full well rejected it to do as their own mouth declares.

Nothing new under the sun

 

[ivebeenshown]

Some people have tried to say that God blesses with His right hand and judges with His left (and for that reason, some parents only spank with their left hand) but that's taking great liberties generalizing one parable.

Ah, but one must take liberties that are additions to the word of God to state that Joseph and Mary are the left and right hands of the LORD. The LORD's own words tell us who will be at the left and right hand.

Matthew 20
23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Matthew 25
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Where is prepared of the Father? The right and left hand, which are the Kingdom prepared of the Father for the elect, and the everlasting fire prepared of the Father for the devil and his angels.

Thus saith the LORD.

 

[98cwitr]

Israel is the queen. Christ is King and his bride is His people.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

False queen of heaven here. I am speaking about a true queen of heaven. We do not see in scripture that Heaven has a queen.

2 Women enter, 1 Woman leaves [take from "Mad Max-" movie ]

Revelation 12:1 And a great Sign was seen in the heaven.
A Woman having been about-cast/peri-beblhmenh <4016> (5772) the sun, and the moon underneath of the feet of her

Reve 17:4 And the Woman was having been about-cast/peri-beblhmenh <4016> (5772) purple and scarlet and having been gilded to gold and precious stone and pearls

 

[Fireinfolding]

One could see the queen thing or widowhood in realtion to a covenant

Jerm 31:31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

He was an "husband"

Jerm 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:


Whereas not seeing your husband died is not reccognizing one is a widow, even as here...

Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

Now here...


Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married **to** another man.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye **also** are become dead to **the law** by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even **to** him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Am "no widow" can partain to believing she is still married to an husband

... for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The only queen of heaven could be the Holy Spirit judging from the feminine aspects attributed to the Holy Spirit . unfortunately, spirit is genderless . so perhaps the bride of Christ indwelt by the Holy Spirit is the queen and Jesus indwelt by the Father is the king .

 

[Dark_Lite]

Not at all.

And the traditions handed down weren't randomly decided teachings, they were the traditions that had been learned from the scriptures which were in turn taught to the gentiles, who in turn were to teach them to the next generation.

No teaching is "randomly decided." Where is your support for the assertion that all of these traditions were found in Scripture? Remember, the New Testament as we know it did not exist for 300 years. This is historical fact. There were different versions of the canon floating around, depending on which Early Church Father you talked to.

Isa 8: 11-20


I don't see anything here that paints a different picture then what I said. God tells Isaiah to look to Him and fear Him. He says His word will be an offense to Israel.

His law will be bound up with His disciples, not tradition, and those who have truth will speak according to the law and the testimony, again, nothing about tradition.

Well, besides this being the Old Testament, just because it doesn't specifically mention Tradition doesn't mean that Tradition disappears. Tradition cannot contradict or disagree with Scripture. The reason I question your use of this verse is because in context, the whole thing is a prophecy, not a specific commandment.

Well, according to what we saw taking place in Paul's letters, the churches were having a difficult time actually doing what Jesus and the apostles taught -- including the Roman Church.

Yeah, and they had no Bible to tell them what was what. Guess who kept things in line? The apostles and their successors.

ALSO: "The Word became flesh," not "flesh became the Word!"

What does this have to do with anything?

 

[ivebeenshown]

What does this have to do with anything?

It has to do with "the Word became flesh" and not "flesh became the Word"...

Because if Mary's egg became Jesus... the (fallen) flesh became the Word. But we are told the opposite: "The Word became flesh."

Mary is the Christotokos (bearer of the human Christ) not the Theotokos (bearer of the eternal God.)

Granted, this might have a place on the Mariology board I have noticed since posting this.

 

[Dark_Lite]

It has to do with "the Word became flesh" and not "flesh became the Word"...

Because if Mary's egg became Jesus... the (fallen) flesh became the Word. But we are told the opposite: "The Word became flesh."

Mary is the Christotokos (bearer of the human Christ) not the Theotokos (bearer of the eternal God.)

Granted, this might have a place on the Mariology board I have noticed since posting this.

Jesus is fully God and fully man. You can't ever have them separate. That's Nestorianism (I think).

 

[Fireinfolding]

Can I ask a dumb question maybe? Isnt the word Theotokos supposedly greek? Where is this word found in the translation so I can find it? Another thing, if its greek whereas they always use latin why now use the greek? If this is so, I ask because I dont know, often I might say something out of the greek and its a "no no no no", but in this instance if it is, why's it ok? Know what Im asking?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesus is fully God and fully man. You can't ever have them separate. That's Nestorianism (I think).

So what does that have to do with Mary being Queen