Mary cannot be Queen.

[Gregory Thompson]

Interesting.
So you're saying that even though we're king/priests.. we will be queen?

yes in this part of the time line i am a male

but in the restoration i will be part of the fulfillment of Eve to the Last Adam .

 

[GaryP]

So what about the child who would be the King of Israel, but was destroyed and snatched away after 7 days. What became of this child king and what is his name?
He is the root of David and who is his Mother? Who's DNA was he carrying? He was born
of Sin. IHS.

 

[ivebeenshown]

So what about the child who would be the King of Israel, but was destroyed and snatched away after 7 days. What became of this child king and what is his name?
He is the root of David and who is his Mother? Who's DNA was he carrying? He was born
of Sin. IHS.

God's DNA. The Father used the womb of Mary to bring forth the Son. The Son was not formed by one of Mary's eggs but by the Holy Spirit.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Trying to call Mary 'Zion', who delivers the man-child in Isaiah 66, is misleading and leads to worship of Mary.

Do you worship Zion as God?

Mary will indeed be at his right hand, and probably Joseph -- but so will everyone else who has kept the commandments in faith. Nobody should want to be on his left hand.

Some people have tried to say that God blesses with His right hand and judges with His left (and for that reason, some parents only spank with their left hand) but that's taking great liberties generalizing one parable.

But you didn't really answer the question. If Mary is not the highest creature in Heaven, who is?

Also, this verse serves as an example for us: Jesus mentions a resurrection from the dead and Paul mentions some who do err, saying the "resurrection is past."

Mary is not yet resurrected, therefore, she cannot currently and actively do anything for you.

There were people in the Old Testament who rose from the dead and Jesus resurrected some people from the dead (especially with His death). St. Paul's point is that the resurrection of the body is still in the future, not that absolutely no one is bodily in Heaven. The obvious counter-example is that Christ rose from the dead and bodily ascended into Heaven. St. Paul certainly wasn't saying that Christ's Resurrection did not happen. Mary was raised from the dead and was taken into Heaven.

The question of whether the souls of the faithfully departed are in Heaven or unconscious (soul sleep) is the subject of another current thread which I have commented on.

Furthermore, Jesus has spoken: whosoever does the will of his Father is his mother and brethren. You cannot have it both ways -- if Mary is queen of heaven, Paul must also be queen of heaven, as Paul did the will of the Father, which Jesus says makes Paul, his mother.

Except only Mary was the actual Mother of God. Also, if you want to go that route, who was the only person apart from Christ Himself to do the will of God perfectly? Only Mary is truly the perfect Handmaid of the Lord.

All people are not equal in Heaven (or Hell). The souls of men and women take the place of the fallen angels in the hierarchy of Grace. The woman who crushed the head of the serpent Lucifer has taken his place in Heaven.

There is not an equal amount of Grace in everyone:

But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ.

So clearly there must be someone who is highest in Heaven, after from God. It is clear that Mary is the one who is highest from the very fact that she was the one who merited to bear Christ:

[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary

As the highest creature in Heaven, Mary is the Queen of Heaven.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Also, if you want to go that route, who was the only person apart from Christ Himself to do the will of God perfectly? Only Mary is truly the perfect Handmaid of the Lord.

In the name of God almighty, repent!

A person who can perfectly do the will of God does not need a savior. Jesus Christ is the only such person -- he was the savior, he needed no savior.

Luke 1
46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

The only person who could have done the will of God perfectly, from conception to death, to resurrection, is God - the Lord Jesus Christ.

Mary is NOT God. She is not on the level of God. She is a created being. Do not worship her by claiming she is like unto God. For who is like unto God but God himself?

To claim one is like unto our perfect God is to claim they are God! Mary is not God! Mary was from a LOW ESTATE! Believe the scriptures and REPENT!

Psalm 86:8
Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.

Mary's works are not like unto the Lord's works.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

God's DNA. The Father used the womb of Mary to bring forth the Son. The Son was not formed by one of Mary's eggs but by the Holy Spirit.

This is the ancient heresy of Valentinus the Gnostic which was revived by the Anabaptist founder Menno Simmons.

You could believe that, but then you are denying the Incarnation of Christ because then Christ wouldn't really be truly human and thus we are not saved.

So you can either accept that Mary truly is the Mother of God or reject the humanity of Christ and thus the redemption.

 

[ivebeenshown]

This is the ancient heresy of Valentinius the Gnostic which was revived by the Anabaptist founder Menno Simmons.

You could believe that, but then you are denying the Incarnation of Christ because then Christ wouldn't really be truly human and thus we are not saved.

So you can either accept that Mary truly is the Mother of God or reject the humanity of Christ and thus the redemption.

Mary is not the DNA mother of God, and that in no way rejects the humanity of Christ. As Adam was the son of God, the first human, without a mitochondrial DNA inheritance, so was Jesus Christ the Son of God, the last Adam, without a mitochondrial DNA inheritance.

Adam was human, Jesus was human.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

A person who can perfectly do the will of God does not need a savior.

Why? Even though Mary was saved from inheriting Original Sin, that doesn't mean that she could have gone to Heaven had not Christ died and opened the Gates of Heaven -- Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence in Paradise, not Heaven. Also, the only way she was saved from inheriting Original Sin was because of the Crucifixion. So you are saying that Mary being saved from inheriting Original Sin and committing any personal sins doesn't count as being saved. Sounds rather like the fullness of salvation to me.

A man who pulls someone out of a pit saves him but so too does someone who prevents another person from falling into that pit save them more perfectly by never allowing them to fall. If Christ is the perfect savior it follows that He must have saved someone perfectly by preventing their fall, that person was His Most Blessed Mother.

Luke 1
46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Why does "low estate" (or "humility" -- ταπείνωσιν) mean "sinner" to you? Christ infinitely descended to take on human nature. Furthermore, not only is human nature humble but Mary crushes the pride of the serpent by her humility. If "humble" means "sinner" to you, how do you explain that says that He is humble (ταπεινὸς) in Mt 11:29?

Furthermore, He says:

And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled [ταπεινωθήσεται]: and he that shall humble [ταπεινώσει] himself shall be exalted.

Yet you are saying that humility is a bad thing and means that a person is a sinner. So therefore Christ calls Himself a sinner and tells people to be sinners. Your logic has a severe problem.

Mary is NOT God. She is not on the level of God. She is a created being. Do not worship her by claiming she is like unto God. For who is like unto God but God himself?

Has anyone said differently? It was your claim that unless a person sins, they are God, not mine.

 

[laconicstudent]

Mary is not the DNA mother of God, and that in no way rejects the humanity of Christ. As Adam was the son of God, the first human, without a mitochondrial DNA inheritance, so was Jesus Christ the Son of God, the last Adam, without a mitochondrial DNA inheritance.

Adam was human, Jesus was human.

An argument which only works if you accept Creationism.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Mary is not the DNA mother of God, and that in no way rejects the humanity of Christ. As Adam was the son of God, the first human, without a mitochondrial DNA inheritance, so was Jesus Christ the Son of God, the last Adam, without a mitochondrial DNA inheritance.

Adam was human, Jesus was human.

If Jesus was a new creation and not the child of Mary, then what you really have is not that Jesus is human but what we might call "human-prime". So then Christ would save the "human-prime" race which would consist solely of Himself.

If Christ is not truly human, taking His human nature from Mary, then He is not the Mediator of God and Man and we are not saved.

It is not wise to toss out accepted Christian doctrine and start adopting Gnostic teachings. You end up with some illogical ideas. Indeed, this is all old hat, having been easily refuted 1800 years ago:

Those, therefore, who allege that He took nothing from the Virgin do greatly err, [since,] in order that they may cast away the inheritance of the flesh, they also reject the analogy [between Him and Adam]. For if the one [who sprang] from the earth had indeed formation and substance from both the hand and workmanship of God, but the other not from the hand and workmanship of God, then He who was made after the image and likeness of the former did not, in that case, preserve the analogy of man, and He must seem an inconsistent piece of work, not having wherewith He may show His wisdom. But this is to say, that He also appeared putatively as man when He was not man, and that He was made man while taking nothing from man. For if He did not receive the substance of flesh from a human being, He neither was made man nor the Son of man; and if He was not made what we were, He did no great thing in what He suffered and endured. But every one will allow that we are [composed of] a body taken from the earth, and a soul receiving spirit from God. This, therefore, the Word of God was made, recapitulating in Himself His own handiwork; and on this account does He confess Himself the Son of man, and blesses "the meek, because they shall inherit the earth." [Mt 5:5] The Apostle Paul, moreover, in the Epistle to the Galatians, declares plainly, "God sent His Son, made of a woman." [Gal 4:4] And again, in that to the Romans, he says, "Concerning His Son, who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, who was predestinated as the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord." [Rom 1:3-4]

Superfluous, too, in that case is His descent into Mary; for why did He come down into her if He were to take nothing of her? Still further, if He had taken nothing of Mary, He would never have availed Himself of those kinds of food which are derived from the earth, by which that body which has been taken from the earth is nourished; nor would He have hungered, fasting those forty days, like Moses and Elias, unless His body was craving after its own proper nourishment; nor, again, would John His disciple have said, when writing of Him, "But Jesus, being wearied with the journey, was sitting [to rest];" [Jn 4:6] nor would David have proclaimed of Him beforehand, "They have added to the grief of my wounds;" nor would He have wept over Lazarus, nor have sweated great drops of blood; nor have declared, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful;" [Mt 26:38] nor, when His side was pierced, would there have come forth blood and water. For all these are tokens of the flesh which had been derived from the earth, which He had recapitulated in Himself, bearing salvation to His own handiwork.

Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; but is under tutors and governors until the time appointed by the father: So we also, when we were children, were serving under the elements of the world. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent his Son, made of a woman, made under the law: that he might redeem them who were under the law: that we might receive the adoption of sons.

If you reject that Christ was "made of a woman", you necessarily then reject that He has redeemed us since that was the very purpose for which He took on human nature from His Virgin Mother.

 

[Pythons]

I'vebeenshown can't say "Mary is the Mother of God"....
...Simply because to him the Son of Mary is NOT God.
...Like I've said since the start of my posting, different Trinity.

 

[ivebeenshown]

If Jesus was a new creation and not the child of Mary, then what you really have is not that Jesus is human but what we might call "human-prime". So then Christ would save the "human-prime" race which would consist solely of Himself.

No. This you are willingly ignorant of: Adam was a 100% human, like you or I, and he had no genetic inheritance -- just the son of God. Jesus was the last Adam (1 Cor 15.)

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the last Adam. He was the child of Mary only according to her physical delivery and upbringing of him -- not by her DNA. That in no way makes him NOT 100% human. Mary is the mother of Jesus: the surrogate mother of Jesus.

Romans 3
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Look. ALL have sinned, save for God himself -- the LORD Jesus. This includes Mary, the wife of Joseph, hence her need for a savior. Mary was the mother of the child Jesus, and bore him. As Jesus said: anyone who does the will of the Father, the same is his brother, sister, and mother.

 

[Dark_Lite]

No. Adam was a 100% human, like you or I, and he had no genetic inheritance -- just the son of God.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the last Adam. He was the child of Mary only according to her physical delivery and upbringing of him -- not by her DNA. That in no way makes him NOT 100% human.

Romans 3
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:



Look. ALL have sinned, save for God himself -- the LORD Jesus. This includes Mary, the wife of Joseph.

So now we have divine artificial insemination going on? Hmm, that's interesting.

Also, I had a response to this thread on Sunday, but the forum crashed before I could post it.

Basically it went something along the lines of you being my sister, brother, mother, and father all at once. I never knew that was the true case. Basically, you were shifting definitions to make your original point--it cannot work.

 

[Stryder06]

I know I'm a bit late here but I wanted to ask you a few questions about what you said.

If Mary is not the highest creature in Heaven, who is?

1st) Why does it matter
2nd) I would like to think the angel that attends the Father. My belief is that it's Gabriel.
Out of humanity, Christ said it was up to His Father to decide who would be at His left and right hand. Thus that place is reserved and no one knows who will occupy those positions.

. St. Paul certainly wasn't saying that Christ's Resurrection did not happen. Mary was raised from the dead and was taken into Heaven.

Won't get into the whole soul sleep vs no sleep thing but you have nothing to base that on, Mary ascending into heaven, other than tradition. For all of that anyone could say anybody is in heaven.

Except only Mary was the actual Mother of God. Also, if you want to go that route, who was the only person apart from Christ Himself to do the will of God perfectly? Only Mary is truly the perfect Handmaid of the Lord.

Come again? What was so perfect about Mary? She was obedient and gave birth to Christ. How does that make her perfect? John perfectly executed His job of preparing the way of the Lord. Just because she submitted to God doesn't make her an exalted being. If anything she is just an example of living by faith and trusting in God. But at the same time she doesn't have that position on lock.

All people are not equal in Heaven (or Hell). The souls of men and women take the place of the fallen angels in the hierarchy of Grace. The woman who crushed the head of the serpent Lucifer has taken his place in Heaven.

I'm sorry, but (1st) How do you define equality. I believe we all may have different roles and responsibilities, but I don't forsee anyone being "greater" than another since we've all been saved by the blood of the lamb. (2nd) What woman crushed the devils head? The text says the seed shall crush his head, and he would bruise His heel. No mention of a woman there at all.

There is not an equal amount of Grace in everyone:

Why isn't there?

So clearly there must be someone who is highest in Heaven, after from God. It is clear that Mary is the one who is highest from the very fact that she was the one who merited to bear Christ:

Again, what does her having Christ have to do with anything? You make is sound as if she is saved by her works and is being exalted by what she has done.

As the highest creature in Heaven, Mary is the Queen of Heaven.

Your tradition doesn't trump scripture. Scripture says all have fallen, all have sinned, all our righteousness is as filthy rags, all have turned astray...are those enough "alls" for you or do you need more?

 

[Dark_Lite]

I know I'm a bit late here but I wanted to ask you a few questions about what you said.


1st) Why does it matter
2nd) I would like to think the angel that attends the Father. My belief is that it's Gabriel.
Out of humanity, Christ said it was up to His Father to decide who would be at His left and right hand. Thus that place is reserved and no one knows who will occupy those positions.


Won't get into the whole soul sleep vs no sleep thing but you have nothing to base that on, Mary ascending into heaven, other than tradition. For all of that anyone could say anybody is in heaven.


Come again? What was so perfect about Mary? She was obedient and gave birth to Christ. How does that make her perfect? John perfectly executed His job of preparing the way of the Lord. Just because she submitted to God doesn't make her an exalted being. If anything she is just an example of living by faith and trusting in God. But at the same time she doesn't have that position on lock.


I'm sorry, but (1st) How do you define equality. I believe we all may have different roles and responsibilities, but I don't forsee anyone being "greater" than another since we've all been saved by the blood of the lamb. (2nd) What woman crushed the devils head? The text says the seed shall crush his head, and he would bruise His heel. No mention of a woman there at all.


Why isn't there?


Again, what does her having Christ have to do with anything? You make is sound as if she is saved by her works and is being exalted by what she has done.


Your tradition doesn't trump scripture. Scripture says all have fallen, all have sinned, all our righteousness is as filthy rags, all have turned astray...are those enough "alls" for you or do you need more?

From an outsider's perspective, Scripture is no less historically reliable than Tradition. Even from within Christianity it's the same. Sola Scriptura is not in the Bible, and the Bible had to be compiled through Tradition.

 

[Stryder06]

It is truly meet and right to bless you, O Theotokos, Ever blessed and most pure, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the (?) Seraphim, Without defilement you gave birth to God the Word. True Theotokos, we magnify (?) you!


​

And this doesn't count as worship? The cheribum and seraphim cry Holy Holy Holy Lord God Almighty. They count themselves unworthy to look upon or tread the ground before His presence. Are you telling me seriously that its ok to "Magnify" a created being?

 

[ivebeenshown]

Basically it went something along the lines of you being my sister, brother, mother, and father all at once. I never knew that was the true case. Basically, you were shifting definitions to make your original point--it cannot work.

Think about it:

Jesus says whoever does the will of the Father, the same is his mother.

Paul says (in Galatians 4:26) that the Jerusalem which is above is the mother of us all.

Revelation 21 describes heavenly Jerusalem for us -- nothing may enter that works abomination, that is, only those who do the will of the Father get into heavenly Jerusalem.

I wasn't really shifting definitions, but Jesus did, and I don't want to question what Jesus said.

From an outsider's perspective, Scripture is no less historically reliable than Tradition. Even from within Christianity it's the same. Sola Scriptura is not in the Bible, and the Bible had to be compiled through Tradition.

Pharisees had the law and prophets and psalms and canonized them before Jesus's time and Jesus rode the Pharisees and their scribes (Talmud? Like the catechism?) pretty hard!

 

[Stryder06]

From an outsider's perspective, Scripture is no less historically reliable than Tradition. Even from within Christianity it's the same. Sola Scriptura is not in the Bible, and the Bible had to be compiled through Tradition.

An outsider as in an unbeliever? Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. An outsider can't get it.

And I contend that Isa 8:20 is rather clear as to the method that ought to be used to determine whether or not someone has light:

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

No talk of tradition there.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Think about it:

Jesus says whoever does the will of the Father, the same is his mother.

Paul says (in Galatians 4:26) that the Jerusalem which is above is the mother of us all.

Revelation 21 describes heavenly Jerusalem for us -- nothing may enter that works abomination, that is, only those who do the will of the Father get into heavenly Jerusalem.

I wasn't really shifting definitions, but Jesus did, and I don't want to question what Jesus said.

No, Jesus wasn't shifting definitions. You just think he was. You're taking a bunch of different metaphorical phrases and pretending they all mean the same thing. Your logic is something along the lines of "if I am Christian, then I'm Jesus' mother!" That doesn't make any sense at all. It's speaking to something completely different. It's not leveling the heavenly playing field like you think it is. Context is everything.

Paul also tells us that the prayer of a righteous man is very powerful. I think that alone nullifies your idea.

Pharisees had the law and prophets and psalms and canonized them before Jesus's time and Jesus rode the Pharisees and their scribes (Talmud? Like the catechism?) pretty hard!

Yeah, and... ? The New Testament was not canonized until 300 years after the founding of Christianity. What did the believers do during those 3 centuries?

 

[Dark_Lite]

An outsider as in an unbeliever? Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. An outsider can't get it.

And I contend that Isa 8:20 is rather clear as to the method that ought to be used to determine whether or not someone has light:

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

No talk of tradition there.

And then there's also the verse that tells us to hold fast to the traditions taught to us. Not to mention, that verse is talking about Isaiah's prophecies. Isaiah 8 - Passage Lookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

Verses 11 to 20 give a very different picture of what your verse means.