Mary and Joseph

[Ttalkkugjil]

Sorry, I forget where, but I once read about Jesus' parents that at the time they were betrothed Mary was about 14 years old, while Joseph was about 40.

Is this accurate? Is it what church tradition says? Does anyone here find it a little creepy?

 

[HTacianas]

Sorry, I forget where, but I once read about Jesus' parents that at the time they were betrothed Mary was about 14 years old, while Joseph was about 40.

Is this accurate? Is it what church tradition says? Does anyone here find it a little creepy?

No one knows for certain how old either of them were. The marrying age of a girl at that time would likely have been around 14. There is a tradition in the Church that Joseph was older and widowed. He was betrothed to Mary as more of guardian than a husband. But in any event, there is nothing "creepy" about it at all. When children, either boys or girls, reached reproductive age they typically married.

There is an apocryphal gospel called the Protevangelion of James that records some beliefs of the early Church on the relationship between Mary and Joseph. You can read it here:

CHURCH FATHERS: Protoevangelium of James

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

No one knows for certain how old either of them were. The marrying age of a girl at that time would likely have been around 14. There is a tradition in the Church that Joseph was older and widowed. He was betrothed to Mary as more of guardian than a husband. But in any event, there is nothing "creepy" about it at all. When children, either boys or girls, reached reproductive age they typically married.

There is an apocryphal gospel called the Protevangelion of James that records some beliefs of the early Church on the relationship between Mary and Joseph. You can read it here:

CHURCH FATHERS: Protoevangelium of James

Very informational, thank you. One thing you said that I'd question is the nature of the relationship between Mary and Joseph. Their being husband and wife is evidenced by their having biological children together.

 

[HTacianas]

Very informational, thank you. One thing you said that I'd question is the nature of the relationship between Mary and Joseph. Their being husband and wife is evidenced by their having biological children together.

There is no record of Mary and Joseph having biological children together. The gospels mention "brothers" and "sisters" of Jesus. Tradition has it that those were children of Joseph from a previous marriage. While the Protoevangelion of James is non-canonical, it does support the Church's teaching that Mary had no further children after Jesus. James was written early to mid first century, and by someone familiar with the gospels. Had the early Church believed Mary to have had other children it would not have been written as it was.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

There is no record of Mary and Joseph having biological children together. The gospels mention "brothers" and "sisters" of Jesus. Tradition has it that those were children of Joseph from a previous marriage. While the Protoevangelion of James is non-canonical, it does support the Church's teaching that Mary had no further children after Jesus. James was written early to mid first century, and by someone familiar with the gospels. Had the early Church believed Mary to have had other children it would not have been written as it was.

The Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus. In my thinking, they were absolutely the biological children of Mary and Joseph.

Did Jesus have brothers and sisters (siblings)?

Oh and the canon ever and always outweighs anything written in non-canon.

 

[ewq1938]

Sorry, I forget where, but I once read about Jesus' parents that at the time they were betrothed Mary was about 14 years old, while Joseph was about 40.

The bible doesn't say how old they were. It was a normal thing for an older man to take a bride who was just able to start having children. The reasoning was an already established man who had a way to earn income could provide for a young wife and she could bare many children for him. He would die before her but she would have many sons and daughters to help her in her old age and the process would repeat for her children. In these modern times this dynamic is not needed and has been mainly abandoned.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

The bible doesn't say how old they were. It was a normal thing for an older man to take a bride who was just able to start having children. The reasoning was an already established man who had a way to earn income could provide for a young wife and she could bare many children for him. He would die before her but she would have many sons and daughters to help her in her old age and the process would repeat for her children. In these modern times this dynamic is not needed and has been mainly abandoned.

If she was 14, if, she was a child herself. I know many 14 year olds. Not one of them belongs with an adult male.

 

[HTacianas]

The Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus. In my thinking, they were absolutely the biological children of Mary and Joseph.

Did Jesus have brothers and sisters (siblings)?

Oh and the canon ever and always outweighs anything written in non-canon.

The bible does mention brothers and sisters of Jesus, but in what context? A half brother or half sister would still be referred to as a brother or sister.

 

[Alithis]

No one knows for certain how old either of them were. The marrying age of a girl at that time would likely have been around 14. There is a tradition in the Church that Joseph was older and widowed. He was betrothed to Mary as more of guardian than a husband. But in any event, there is nothing "creepy" about it at all. When children, either boys or girls, reached reproductive age they typically married.

There is an apocryphal gospel called the Protevangelion of James that records some beliefs of the early Church on the relationship between Mary and Joseph. You can read it here:

CHURCH FATHERS: Protoevangelium of James

The tradition of joseph being a widower is fairy tales.. But then so is a lot of tradition.
It was made up so they could use it to say mary had no more children and remained a virgin
.its just hogwash.

 

[ewq1938]

If she was 14, if, she was a child herself. I know many 14 year olds. Not one of them belongs with an adult male.

Not now but in the past it was commonplace.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

The bible does mention brothers and sisters of Jesus, but in what context? A half brother or half sister would still be referred to as a brother or sister.

Yes - half-brothers and half-sisters: the biological children of Mary and Joseph.

 

[HTacianas]

The tradition of joseph being a widower is fairy tales.. But then so is a lot of tradition.
It was made up so they could use it to say mary had no more children and remained a virgin
.its just hogwash.

That is your opinion. And I don't hold to it, for a number of reasons. For one, the gospel of James, as we have been discussing, was written around 150 or so AD. For someone to have invented the idea the "tradition of joseph being a widower" it would have to have been very early on in Christianity. The second, and primary reason I do not hold to your opinion is that the Council of Nicea, convening in 325 AD and composed of men who spoke the original language of the new testament, declared the virginity of Mary to be the belief of the Church. Those were men who were quite familiar with the new testament, and as I already said, were native speakers of the original language. Even more telling is that those same men condemned the gospel of James as a forgery. Even though it supported their beliefs they refused to accept the book as canonical. It shows they were honest.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Sorry, I forget where, but I once read about Jesus' parents that at the time they were betrothed Mary was about 14 years old, while Joseph was about 40.

Is this accurate? Is it what church tradition says? Does anyone here find it a little creepy?

Not at all.

In those days and that culture, most females were mothers at least once by the age of 16.

And frequently their husbands were considerably older.

Also, don't forget that most marriages were arranged by the families.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Very informational, thank you. One thing you said that I'd question is the nature of the relationship between Mary and Joseph. Their being husband and wife is evidenced by their having biological children together.

But they didn't.

Many times, the Bible uses "brothers" without their necessarily having the same mother.

An example of this is in Matthew 1, where we read of "Judah and his brothers," though they actually had 4 mothers among them.

 

[prodromos]

The Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus. In my thinking, they were absolutely the biological children of Mary and Joseph.

Any children of Joseph would be called Jesus' brothers and sisters. Also, the behaviour of Jesus' brothers towards him is consistent with them being older than Him. If Jesus was the eldest then He would have been the absolute head after Joseph passed away. They treat Him more like a celebrity younger brother.
Tradition also names Salome, the wife of Zebedee and mother of James and John, as a daughter of Joseph. Her request of Jesus for her sons to sit at His left and right hand in his kingdom is consistent with her being His older sister.

 

[Jonaitis]

Sorry, I forget where, but I once read about Jesus' parents that at the time they were betrothed Mary was about 14 years old, while Joseph was about 40.

Is this accurate? Is it what church tradition says? Does anyone here find it a little creepy?

I don't know, some will say that Joseph was previously married and thus was much older than Mary who remained a virgin from her youth for the rest of her life. There are strong arguments for this, I admit, but I am beginning to question it again. I am beginning to think that Mary and Joseph were both young, and never known a person prior.

 

[ewq1938]

I don't know, some will say that Joseph was previously married and thus was much older than Mary who remained a virgin from her youth for the rest of her life.

She had children with her husband so that means she lost her virginity.

 

[Jonaitis]

She had children with her husband so that means she lost her virginity.

Possibly.

 

[Monk Brendan]

I don't know, some will say that Joseph was previously married and thus was much older than Mary who remained a virgin from her youth for the rest of her life. There are strong arguments for this, I admit, but I am beginning to question it again. I am beginning to think that Mary and Joseph were both young, and never known a person prior.

Jean Chauvin (to use the real name of John Calvin) believed and taught Mary's perpetual virginity.

 

[Monk Brendan]

She had children with her husband so that means she lost her virginity.

Wrong.

Nowhere does the Bible say Mary had children by Joseph.